It is so!
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What is wrong with the Quran?
- Thread starter sayak83
- Start date
I'm a fan of parsimony as a basis.
Notanumber
A Free Man
I will be alert to it when I get there. Thanks.
Birds are not controlled by anyone and the physics of how they fly are quite well known. Differential air-pressure acting on the wings and feathers hold them up, just like air-planes. Did you not know?
Basic Flight Physics
Simple Science of Flight (BOOK)
So now that we know that there is nothing miraculous about flying at all, is it yet another reason to consider the Quran ignorant about the truths of the world?
psychoslice
Veteran Member
My personal opinion is that its an ugly book.
firedragon
Veteran Member
What kind of an impression does the Quran make when read from the point of view of a person outside of the faith? Does it truly come across as a convincing word of God (as believers say), or yet another medieval man-made doctrine (as critics say) or something in between. To find out, I will read the Quran, front to back and collect my impressions. Others can chime in an comment, but please stay within the chapter I am discussion to prevent confusion. Not everything will be covered , only those things that jump out. But others can point to sections I should take a second look.
I will start with Al-Buqara (the Cow), which is the second chapter (sura) of the book.
Now from the very first, the surah states that the book is meant for the believers. (v2-v5)
This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, containing guidance for those who are mindful (muttaqin) of God, who believe in the Unseen, keep up the prayer and spend from that which We have provided them; those who believe in the Revelation sent down to you (Muhammed), and those who have firm faith in the hereafter. Such people are following their Lord's guidance and it is they who shall prosper.
The description is unequivocal. Quran is for those who are already all in, believing in the God of Muhammed fully and unequivocally. This of course makes everyone else not welcome as a reader of the book. This feeling is exacerbated by the polemic of the next verse:- (v6)
As for those who disbelievers, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.
The Quran is saying at the very beginning that convincing unbelievers is a lost cause, for God Himself has caused them to be insensitive of the message and has decreed that they will be greatly tormented for this unbelief. Not only does this open up the the whole can of worms regarding God's role in actively promoting unbelief; unbelief and how one can still morally defend torment for unbelief under such conditions - but Quran appears to have given up trying to convince disbelievers from the very beginning, and threatening them with torment and diatribes instead.
Overall, not at all inspiring so far. Hostile and negative in tone and content.
To be continued.
1. Youre assumption is like saying medical books are meant for students of medicine only. Thus no one else can read it. What about a new student?
2. Muttaqoon doesnt mean believer. There could be other meanings to this word. You have done an extremely shallow analysis mate.
There is a difference between a reference manual for practicing doctors and beginner level college book of medicine. In the former, one assumes the doctor already knows and believes in his trade and acts as a guidance for look up and more technical aspects. In the latter, the student is assumed no knowledge or trust in the science of medicine and provides knowledge, evidence and examples of correct usage so that the student gains confidence in the praxis of medicine. There is a big introductory chapter in all such books telling exactly who they are geared for and how to read them effectively. Quran explicitly states that it is a book for the believers alone. See below.
I did not say Muttaqoon means believer. I translated it as "mindful". Read the whole sentence
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..containing guidance for those who are mindful (muttaqin) of God, who believe in the Unseen, keep up the prayer and spend from that which We have provided them; those who believe in the Revelation sent down to you (Muhammed), and those who have firm faith in the hereafter.
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This entire sentence describes a person who already and firmly believes in the theology of Islam.
It appears that it is you who is cherry-picking, as you left out the next part where the book clearly says its not meant for unbelievers and its is useless to use this book in trying to convince them and tells Muslims to not even try.
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As for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.
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As far as the opening section goes, I think it is pretty evident that its intent is mainly to cater to and energize the converted choir and to paint skeptics as villainous. You already see the us vs them type of differentiation and associated vilification going on which continues on to include alleged hypocrites, less fervent believers and reformers in the next verses. (LINK).
Thus it appears to me that it is your analysis that is shallow and selective mate.
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
No it ain't
What is wrong with the Quran?
You're just randomly posting verses from the Qur'an which have no relevance to the discussion, and many people here know unequivocally that your agenda is conversion of kuffar to Islam.
I would advise you to cease random verse-posting, and to either leave the thread or to participate in an honest manner in the discussion.
sovietchild
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry to trouble you, but I prefer If you can answer my question. What is wrong with the Quran?
I'd have preferred you respond to my post with anything other than a question of tangential relevance, but very well.
I think the question 'What is wrong with the Qur'an?' is over-simplistic and can't be answered in some unequivocal manner outside of qualification and context.
This thread seems a good-faith effort to give one person's impressions of the Qur'an by the OP. In an attempt to keep it vaguely on topic, I am going to cease replying in a non-thematic manner and merely report all off-topic "preach-spamming" henceforth. I would encourage those who agree with me to follow suit.
firedragon
Veteran Member
So how did you come to the conclusion that it was meant to be read by "only" believers?
second, what is a believer? You mean Muttaqoon, Muminoon or Muslim?
The challenge of producing literature like Quran
From verse 21 to 24, God claims Himself to be the Creator of earth and sky and calls on all people to worship Him. To people who doubt this claim, or the Quran, the challenge of creating a chapter like that of the Quran is issued. Then, the Quran assures that people will fail and once again threatens fire and brimstone to doubters.
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People, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, so that you may be mindful (of Him), who spread out the earth for you and the sky as a canopy, and sent water from the sky by which He brought forth fruits for your provision. Do not, knowing this, set up rivals for God.
If you have doubts about the revelation We have sent down to our servant, then produce a single surah like it - enlist whatever supporters you have apart from God if you truly think you can. If you cannot do this - and you never will - then be aware of the Fire prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones.
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Now, firstly, I consider the challenge to produce a chapter like the one in the Quran very odd. What can it possibly mean? How can one objectively judge quality like this? One could easily and justifiably say that a single chapter in one of the plays of Shakespeare have greater quality and beauty than a chapter in the Quran. Or, if one is to compare like with like, one can similarly say the same thing about the Gita or the Guru Granth Sahib when one compares with the Quran, both in quality of poetry and quality of content. And how can this possibly serve as a test of the authenticity of the Quran and its claims about God? I am now both reading a translation of the Quran and hearing a recitation of it, and frankly nothing sounds so special that I have to posit anything outside of the human mind so far. Thus the question remains, what precisely is meant by such a challenge, if one is to compare a Quran surah, with say a chapter in the Gita?
Of course the continuing threat of torment and fire to all disbelievers remain a jarring note for all who read the Quran from outside of the faithful and believing community.
This small section of the chapter ends with promises of a heaven for the believers, which appears to be quite a simple projection of idealistic earthly life. (v25)
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[Prophet] give those who believe and do good the news that they will have Gardens, graced with flowing streams. Whenever they are given sustenance from the fruits of the Gardens, they will say, "We have been given this before," because they were provided with a likeness of it (on earth). They will have pure spouses and there they will stay.
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Gardens, water, fruits, pure husbands and wives....an idealistic mortal life projected to heaven it appears.
Its intended audience are those who
i) believe in and are reverent of Allah
ii) believe in the unseen , in the fact that Quran is a revelation sent down from Allah to Muhammed, and in the previous prophets
iii)are firmly convinced about the after-world
iv) diligently perform the prayer (salah) and give alms (zakah).
as clearly seen in the first verses of the 2nd surah. What term you would use to refer to such people is irrelevant.
firedragon
Veteran Member
The thing is the first verses does not really say that mate.
Truly I respect your respectful approach. We debate but we can embrace eachother no matter what the creed colour or location we live in.
2:2 This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the
righteous.
2:3 Those who believe in the unseen, and hold the Communion, and
from Our provisions to them they spend.
2:4 And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what
was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are
certain.
2:5 These are the ones guided by their Lord, and these are the successful
ones.
2:6 As for those who reject, whether you warn them or do not warn
them, they will not believe.
2:7 God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes are
covers. They will incur a great retribution.
2:8 And from the people are those who say: “We believe in God and
in the Last Day,” but they are not believers.
It is a guide, not exclusion.
Read the Quran as if you are reading it for yourself, to judge yourself, understand yourself and what you should do.
Not as a book to exclude people or judge others alone.
Let me give you an example.
Study what "Corruption in the land" is. Awfasadhin fil ardha.
It is those who murder in the name of Allah. Kaaloo thakaa samaa biullah...
If you try and only judge others you will never understand it.
The first section is a single thought, read not as separate verses but as a single block . I have consulted 5 or 6 translations to get to the most plausible format (obviously there is no punctuation in the original). This one I am quoting from Abdel Haleem. What is your translation source?
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2 This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, containing guidance for those who are mindful of God, 3 who believe in the unseen, keep up the prayer, and give out of what We have provided for them; 4 those who believe in the revelation sent down to you [Muhammad], and in what was sent before you, those who have firm faith in the Hereafter. 5 Such people are following their Lord’s guidance and it is they who will prosper. 6 As for those who disbelieve, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not: they will not believe. 7 God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their
eyes are covered. They will have great torment.
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I am going to quote commentary regarding the word "corruption" or "fasad" in v11 and v12
11 When it is said to them, ‘Do not cause corruption in the land,’ they
say, ‘We are only putting things right,’ 12but really they are causing
corruption, though they do not realize it.
Ibn Abbas and others state that "corruption upon the earth" refers to open disobedience against God or alternatively the results of such disobedience. One interpretation, attributed to Salman-al-Farsi, states that the people to whom this passage refers have not yet come, and its an explanation that most classical commentators (like al-Tabari) accept in the sense that this verse do not restrict the description of corruption as hypocrisy, disobedience and inequity to the Prophet's contemporaries.
The word "putting things right" (muslih) means that they actually believed that their own practice of religion was correct or that they were acting in their self-interest in trying to bridge the gap between believers and disbelievers (Razi).
Source:- Harper Collins Study Quran.
Could you provide sources from which you are getting your particular interpretation? Thanks a lot. If alternate interpretations are more correct, I will surely look at them.