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What is wrong with the Quran?

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What kind of an impression does the Quran make when read from the point of view of a person outside of the faith? Does it truly come across as a convincing word of God (as believers say), or yet another medieval man-made doctrine (as critics say) or something in between. To find out, I will read the Quran, front to back and collect my impressions. Others can chime in an comment, but please stay within the chapter I am discussion to prevent confusion. Not everything will be covered , only those things that jump out. But others can point to sections I should take a second look.

I will start with Al-Buqara (the Cow), which is the second chapter (sura) of the book.

Now from the very first, the surah states that the book is meant for the believers. (v2-v5)

This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, containing guidance for those who are mindful (muttaqin) of God, who believe in the Unseen, keep up the prayer and spend from that which We have provided them; those who believe in the Revelation sent down to you (Muhammed), and those who have firm faith in the hereafter. Such people are following their Lord's guidance and it is they who shall prosper.

The description is unequivocal. Quran is for those who are already all in, believing in the God of Muhammed fully and unequivocally. This of course makes everyone else not welcome as a reader of the book. This feeling is exacerbated by the polemic of the next verse:- (v6)

As for those who disbelievers, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.

The Quran is saying at the very beginning that convincing unbelievers is a lost cause, for God Himself has caused them to be insensitive of the message and has decreed that they will be greatly tormented for this unbelief. Not only does this open up the the whole can of worms regarding God's role in actively promoting unbelief; unbelief and how one can still morally defend torment for unbelief under such conditions - but Quran appears to have given up trying to convince disbelievers from the very beginning, and threatening them with torment and diatribes instead.

Overall, not at all inspiring so far. Hostile and negative in tone and content.

To be continued. :)
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

This is my favorite:

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

don't just kill them but torture and humiliate them
iu
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
All holy books gave disturbingly violent passages in them. I have yet to understand why, but the Qur'an is not unique for these types of verses.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
All holy books gave disturbingly violent passages in them. I have yet to understand why, but the Qur'an is not unique for these types of verses.
Agreed, but it is almost unique in its haughty contempt for disbelievers. Oddly, you would think that a being as brilliant as bona fide god would work to convince the disbelievers in his cause/reality rather than crafting a tomb that is simply singing to the choir. Talk about picking the lowest fruit on the tree. Personally, I expect FAR better from any being who want me to think of it as a god.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
but Quran appears to have given up trying to convince disbelievers from the very beginning, and threatening them with torment and diatribes instead.

Overall, not at all inspiring so far. Hostile and negative in tone and content.

So Allah is merciful... if you happen to be one of his creations he made to be a believer. But, if he made you not to believe, I'm thinking he's not quite so merciful.

Impressive Allah, very impressive. You don't strike me as insecure at all, not one little bit insecure.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
From a historic and cultural point of view I find the Qur'an quite interesting. It refutes the belief that Muhammad's audience were illiterate Pagans because it brings up Abrahamic characters, without needing to explain who they are, and gnostic gospel material. It's quite fascinating.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What kind of an impression does the Quran make when read from the point of view of a person outside of the faith? Does it truly come across as a convincing word of God (as believers say), or yet another medieval man-made doctrine (as critics say) or something in between. To find out, I will read the Quran, front to back and collect my impressions. Others can chime in an comment, but please stay within the chapter I am discussion to prevent confusion. Not everything will be covered , only those things that jump out. But others can point to sections I should take a second look.

I will start with Al-Buqara (the Cow), which is the second chapter (sura) of the book.

Now from the very first, the surah states that the book is meant for the believers. (v2-v5)

This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, containing guidance for those who are mindful (muttaqin) of God, who believe in the Unseen, keep up the prayer and spend from that which We have provided them; those who believe in the Revelation sent down to you (Muhammed), and those who have firm faith in the hereafter. Such people are following their Lord's guidance and it is they who shall prosper.

The description is unequivocal. Quran is for those who are already all in, believing in the God of Muhammed fully and unequivocally. This of course makes everyone else not welcome as a reader of the book. This feeling is exacerbated by the polemic of the next verse:- (v6)

As for those who disbelievers, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.

The Quran is saying at the very beginning that convincing unbelievers is a lost cause, for God Himself has caused them to be insensitive of the message and has decreed that they will be greatly tormented for this unbelief. Not only does this open up the the whole can of worms regarding God's role in actively promoting unbelief; unbelief and how one can still morally defend torment for unbelief under such conditions - but Quran appears to have given up trying to convince disbelievers from the very beginning, and threatening them with torment and diatribes instead.

Overall, not at all inspiring so far. Hostile and negative in tone and content.

To be continued. :)
The next section of the Surah of the Cow focus on polemics against hypocrites, lukewarm believers and reformers/liberals. Once again God calls them followers of devils, says He Himself increases their confusion and then promises them immense torment and punishment for being astray. . No effort is made to convince anybody of anything. Once again at the end, God emphasizes that such hypocrites and reformers and lukewarm believers cannot be convinced and are damned to great torment. God again appears as angry and vindictive enforcing belief through threats of punishment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(v8-v18)
Some people say, "We believe in God and the Last Day," when they really do not believe. They seek to deceive God and the believers, though they deceive none but themselves, though they do not realize it. There is a disease in their hearts to which God has added more; agonizing torment awaits them for their persistent lying.
When it is said to them "Do not cause corruption in the land," they say "We are only putting things right."

But they are really causing corruption, though they do not realize it.
When it is said to them "Believe as others believe", they say "Should we believe as fools do?"
But they are the fools, though they do not know it.

.....
(v15) God is mocking them, and allowing them more slack to wander blindly in their insolance. They have bought error in exchange for guidance....(v18) Deaf, dumb, mute and blind: they will never return.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It can easily be seen how such verses can be easily be used by orthodox conservative groups to demonize and condemn anyone who seeks a different understanding or seeks to make Islamic beliefs compatible with modernity. After all God is Himself demonizing and castigating them! It is small wonder then that greater availability of the Quran has led not to reform, but to even greater conservative kinds of faiths.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
Isn't basic reading comprehension good enough?
If your basis for comparison is exceedingly more violent that the Koran....
If your basis for comparison is exceedingly less violent than the Koran....
If you have no basis for comparison....
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Let me guess, you will deny everything presented as not being scripture, right?

Your first chance:
Nirvana Sutra, Chapter 19.​
Ok I got it. Now where,

"Nirvana Sutra" k

(I do not consider it coming from Buddha's time, see wiki, but it is a Mahayana scripture. So I will go along with it.)
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
If your basis for comparison is exceedingly more violent that the Koran....
If your basis for comparison is exceedingly less violent than the Koran....
If you have no basis for comparison....

If we assume that 1.6 billion advocates are scholars.
 

Sakeenah

Well-Known Member
What kind of an impression does the Quran make when read from the point of view of a person outside of the faith? Does it truly come across as a convincing word of God (as believers say), or yet another medieval man-made doctrine (as critics say) or something in between. To find out, I will read the Quran, front to back and collect my impressions. Others can chime in an comment, but please stay within the chapter I am discussion to prevent confusion. Not everything will be covered , only those things that jump out. But others can point to sections I should take a second look.

I will start with Al-Buqara (the Cow), which is the second chapter (sura) of the book.

Now from the very first, the surah states that the book is meant for the believers. (v2-v5)

This is the Scripture in which there is no doubt, containing guidance for those who are mindful (muttaqin) of God, who believe in the Unseen, keep up the prayer and spend from that which We have provided them; those who believe in the Revelation sent down to you (Muhammed), and those who have firm faith in the hereafter. Such people are following their Lord's guidance and it is they who shall prosper.

The description is unequivocal. Quran is for those who are already all in, believing in the God of Muhammed fully and unequivocally. This of course makes everyone else not welcome as a reader of the book. This feeling is exacerbated by the polemic of the next verse:- (v6)

As for those who disbelievers, it makes no difference whether you warn them or not; they will not believe. God has sealed their hearts and their ears, and their eyes are covered. They will have great torment.

The Quran is saying at the very beginning that convincing unbelievers is a lost cause, for God Himself has caused them to be insensitive of the message and has decreed that they will be greatly tormented for this unbelief. Not only does this open up the the whole can of worms regarding God's role in actively promoting unbelief; unbelief and how one can still morally defend torment for unbelief under such conditions - but Quran appears to have given up trying to convince disbelievers from the very beginning, and threatening them with torment and diatribes instead.

Overall, not at all inspiring so far. Hostile and negative in tone and content.

To be continued. :)

These are some verses in Chapter 2:

And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way. [2-186]

"Allah does not burden a soul except [with that within] its capacity" 2:286

"And seek help through patience and prayer." 2:45


"And do good; indeed, Allah loves the doers of good." 2:196

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion." 2:256
 
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