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Featured What is wrong with smashing the idols?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by sovietchild, Jan 27, 2017.

  1. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    The question was for you to answer; yet if you need me to explain it:
    1. It is against the law to assault someone.
    2. The idiot most likely doesn't know they're an idiot as their too stupid to recognize it.
    3. Thus it makes no difference.
    Just the same as smashing idols, those who follow idolatry are simple minded materialistic people; they don't realize they're doing anything wrong. :innocent:
     
  2. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Before I answer, let me point out that it seems that Muslims often equate the use of icons, statues and other physical objects in religious services with idolatry, which would be mistaking such objects ("idols") with supernaturally significant powers.

    Idolatry happens. If nowhere else, it certainly happens in cargo cults. And while I don't personally find that as much of a worry as monotheism itself, I don't disagree that idolatry happens in more mainstream religions as well.

    Idolatry is not all that easy to define - a lot of it is in the eye of the beholder - but we can probably agree that it happens to some degree. There are definitely people who attribute some measure of supernatural significance to various statues and sacred relics around the world, even to abstract geometrical forms.

    Still, how significant is that, and why? It shows that people don't always agree on what is religiously significant, certainly. It hints that at least some people are mistaken about their objects of worship, even if there is no consensus on who exactly those people are.

    I assume that from the perspective of a reasonably typical Muslim, one who sincerely believes that it is very important not to be mistaken about who the only true God is and, specifically, who finds it very unadvisable to worship anything other than that God, it can be a big deal to potentially "worship a false God".

    But what is it that makes a God false, exactly?

    Perhaps surprisingly, a large part of it is in the worshipper himself or herself.

    I am not a believer in revealed religions myself, but it seems clear to me that even if there is such a thing as a true revelation on scripture from the one true God, it is definitely possible to mishandle such revelation in such a way as to develop a seriously misguided idea of who or what that God would be and what proper worship of Him would be. That leads to a very dangerous and in my opinion very common situation, where various people hold conceptions of the divine that are mutually incompatible yet fail to fully acknowledge that, and in fact go out of their way to avoid acknowledging those disagreements.

    Perhaps there is some form of hope that as time goes by they will meditate on the revelation and reach more of a common ground. Perhaps there is some other reason to avoid pointing out flat out that their views are mutually exclusive. Either way, it happens. It happens very often indeed.

    And it is not a problem if we learn to accept it and deal with it respecfully and reasonably. People won't always agree on many things big and small even when they are utterly sincere and well meaning. There is no reason to expect them to consistently agree about such a personal thing as God.

    We atheists know that and accept that fairly easily, because we have little reason to avoid realizing how varied are the conceptions and expectations regard God.

    Hindus, I would think, also know and accept that God is ultimately a very personal belief, that can and will vary considerably from one person to the next. They also largely learned to deal with that in a positive, constructive way: they acknowledge a wide variety of beliefs about the nature and identity of the divine and even establish distinct schools of thought according to specific beliefs. But they perceive no particular need to establish who is "right" and who is "wrong" on that regard, quite possibly because they realize at some level that there is no universal correct answer. It does in fact, and legitimaly, depend to a significant degree on the personal inclinations of the devotee.

    Why so? Mainly, I think, because the relationship between devotee and Deva in Hinduism is far more respectful of individual people and their varied needs, abilities and vocations than it is usual for Muslims to understand and easily accept. It probably helps to be well aware and accepting that disagreements about God will happen, but do not have to spell doom. Hindus have been disagreeing among themselves on the nature, number, and even origin of Devas for literal millennia. That does not seem to have much more consequence beyond leadng to the creation of different schools of thought where people teach with their own answers for those questions. There is no need to insist that others must reach a consensus on those matters.

    I guess I could feel differently if I feared that eternal hellfire could be my destiny after my death unless I learned to worship the One True God before then. But I don't, and I doubt I ever will.
     
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  3. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    Well, I do not think that most Muslims listen to terrorists or Jihadists. I take issue with fundamentalists, no matter their religion.
     
  4. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    @paarsurrey @FearGod
    Obviously, there are people who perceive a benefit in them. Typically, the benefit of religious statues is simply to remind people of the objects of their devotion.

    I feel sure that there are many people who feel their faith renewed when they witness the raising of the sun for a new day, or the growth of their children, or just everyday kindness from strangers. There is very legitimate and welcome worth in experiencing the sacred in everyday life.

    Likewise with art. Beauty itself, esthetical and artistic expression in general and the human interactions with those are very much valid parts of religious life.

    Regardless of the specific doctrines one may hold as true, there is clearly no need to avoid inspiration in this world in order to be true to that which is sacred.

    And for many people, various itens and statues are effective reminders and expressions of various perceptions of the sacred. It is possible to misuse those, but then again it is always possible to commit religious mistakes. It is not like statues are more likely to lead into such mistakes than, say, scripture. Personally, I think they are far less likely to.

    Of course, proposing that items of significance to other people deserve destruction is inherently hurtful anyway, even leaving aside any and all possible religious considerations.
     
    #184 LuisDantas, Jan 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
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  5. Sakeenah

    Sakeenah Well-Known Member

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    I haven't smashed an idol and I'm not going to smash the property of others.

    “And eat up not one another’s property unjustly (in any illegal way, e.g. stealing, robbing, deceiving”

    [al-Baqarah 2:188]
     
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  6. Goddess_Ashtara

    Goddess_Ashtara NIN MOJAVE AK IMEN

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    Tolerance certainly is overrated
     
  7. A Greased Scotsman

    A Greased Scotsman THIS is a sword. And it's bigger than yours!

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    This is irrelevant to the fact such hadith verses exist. Your original question was if they existed; not how well Muslims obeyed them.
     
    #187 A Greased Scotsman, Jan 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
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  8. A Greased Scotsman

    A Greased Scotsman THIS is a sword. And it's bigger than yours!

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    He can't listen. Despite what we may say, soviet can't afford to listen to us because to do so would involve contemplating a religious perspective other than his own. He can't believe that we may actually do or think differently to how Islam says we do because that would mean Islam is wrong about something. And if it's wrong about this what else could it be wrong about? It's so pathetic.
     
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  9. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    If such hadith existed then Muslims should already had destroyed all the idols that existing
    during the Islamic empire, by evidence which we should believe in, Muslims didn't
    destroy the idols and many of them are still shining in Egypt till this day.

    Don't you trust the realistic evidence but you trust a saying hadith?
     
  10. Tabu

    Tabu Active Member

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    Have you smashed this greatest idol of all time.?
    i.e. Caprice , Egoistic desires
    Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? .. Quran ( 45 : 23 )
     
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  11. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member

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    Human beings are usually significantly better than the religious books they follow. The question here is on the quality of the values present in the religion itself, not the (incomparably greater) goodness humanity innately possess and often act upon.
     
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  12. Rival

    Rival Noahide Fundamentalist
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    Muslims have smashed idols in India for decades; they've defaced statues and all sorts. If they tried doing it in Egypt there would be international outcry, and I think they know this.
     
    #192 Rival, Jan 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
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  13. A Greased Scotsman

    A Greased Scotsman THIS is a sword. And it's bigger than yours!

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    That Muslims tend to pick & choose what parts of their religion to follow at any given moment is not non-Muslims' fault and is not something we need to justify or defend in debates. You asked Ymir to produce a hadith or Quran verse which justifies Muslim destruction of idols; Ymir gave you one.

    If you're confused as to why some Muslims seem to ignore ahadith at will then I suggest you examine your own tendency to do so in an attempt to gain insight as to why they might not have obeyed this particular hadith verse.
     
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  14. Rival

    Rival Noahide Fundamentalist
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    https://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/12/249092.html
    "An Egyptian jihad leader, with self-professed links to the Taliban, called for the “destruction of the Sphinx and the Giza Pyramids in Egypt,” drawing ties between the Egyptian relics and Buddha statues, local media reported this week."

    Foreigner Arrested For Smashing Statues Of Buddha At Sensoji - japanCRUSH
    "2ch netizens have been shocked by the news that a Saudi Arabian man who is a graduate student at one of Japan’s most prestigious universities had been arrested for smashing Buddhist statues after he was reported to police for doing so at one of Tokyo’s major temples."

    The 'Talibanization' of Pakistan: Islamists Destroy Buddhist Statue - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International
    "When the Taliban destroyed two Buddhist statues in Afghanistan in the spring of 2001, there was an international outcry. But similar incidents are now occurring in northwest Pakistan, where radical Islamists recently blew up a sculpture of Buddha in broad daylight."

    Italy: Muslims Destroy and Urinate on Virgin Mary Statue - Raymond Ibrahim
    "The first thing they did was rip the photo from his hands.
    Next they unleashed their hatred against the image of the Virgin Mary. They broke the statue to pieces and then urinated on it."

    Do you want some more?

     
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  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    There is no such teaching in Quran. Please
    Regards
     
  16. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan Мы дети Богов

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    There may be no such teaching, but people do it anyways.

    This was answered a ways back, in this post
     
  17. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Obviously different people read or interpret it differently. Such is always the case with religious scripture. even simple communication.
     
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  18. sovietchild

    sovietchild Well-Known Member

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    Are you smart or something? Do you think I'm a doctor? Do you think punching idiots would cure them?
     
  19. wizanda

    wizanda Hairy doesn't mean scary;beard doesn't mean weird
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    Nope, as clearly even a very basic explanation has caused more confusion. :rolleyes:
     
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  20. sovietchild

    sovietchild Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry to trouble you but I prefer if you can at list give me some sources to this belief.
     
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