What is wrong with sharia law?

[oldbadger]

@oldbadger - I'm a Ceredigion-er!

Blimey! For Gawd's sake don't tell @Godobeyer where that is, or anything about what happens in them there hills and mountains!

Frankly I disagree with Sharia and US laws about sex, marriage, consent and most of the rest of it. Apart from emancipated denominations like ours the Abrahamic religions are all self-righteous judgemental 'trouble'.

I like reading this kind of thread because it makes me feel so proud of our Equality Act 2010...... wonderful legislation!

 

[Kirran]

I do believe the media had great effect on people,especially on morality or steorotypes.

You are likely right.

There is web page translator.

I tend to find them unreliable

your method "Laws" worship God.

But where are the laws involved?

Indeed you said.
#414Kirran, Yesterday at 12:46 PM

When I ask you "if there is no suffering,so it's that ok then ?"
You said " Pretty much, yeah.".

Yeah, definitely. So that excludes having sex with animals because that causes violence. I'm gonna quote from somewhere - "In pedophilia [and bestiality] there is only violence, and in homosexuality there is only love."

I do believe it's just propaganda by Western media.

Godobeyer, I had too much esteem for you to think you'd be so easily drawn into conspiracy theories.

I know what mean arrogance and stuborn,by you.

Like you own the science and all knowlegde and truth,everything you said true,and others are wrong !

I wouldn't say so, although certainly I'm not devoid of arrogance. But in the case of homophobia, as in the cases of racism, misogyny, classism, Muslimphobia and other forms of bigotry, my views have become very firm. And that's because time and time again I've seen evidence of how people's lives are destroyed by these ideas. I have seen how people suffer because they're gay but are told they shouldn't be. I've seen the suffering they inflict upon others in turn, on account of that hatred which has been inflicted upon them. I certainly don't own all knowledge and truth. But the evidence on this particular aspect of this particular subject is overwhelming, and it takes a agenda to ignore it.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

fact is anal sex all are harmful,and dirty, more than vaginal sex.

No, that's really not a fact. That's your assumption.

Why suppose to look for men,since the world is full of women?

Because that's who homosexual men are attracted to. It's really not a hard concept. And what's more, who someone else is sexually and romantically attracted to is none of your business.

So you claim that it's impossible for gay to back straight?

Yes.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

The reality is quite opposite to this caricature which was recently conceded by the homosexual newspaper

The Negative Health Effects of Homosexuality

That's not a "homosexual newspaper". It's a homophobic one and the article in question was written by a Former Senior Fellow at the Center for Marriage and Family Studies of the Family Research Council; an anti-equality and homophobia-perpetuating organisation.

I know what mean arrogance and stuborn,by you.

Like you own the science and all knowlegde and truth,everything you said true,and others are wrong !

Kirran isn't making these claims himself; he's saying others (specifically the former gay conversion therapy advocates themselves) have made these claims. Further, if their claims were scientifically validated then they would be peer-reviewed and, if found conclusive, published by scientific journals the world over. And your personal attacks are more than a little hypocritical coming from someone who refuses to accept those he cites (gay conversion therapists) in support of his position (homosexuality is something to be cured) have themselves said it's a load of bunk.

 

[Godobeyer]

No, that's really not a fact. That's your assumption.

It's fact.

Because that's who homosexual men are attracted to. It's really not a hard concept. And what's more, who someone else is sexually and romantically attracted to is none of your business.

That's odd cases , most humans are heterosexual.
there is plenty of cases where gays married to women.

Yes.

It's proved that some gay turned straight.

 

[Godobeyer]

You are likely right.

God , so media who control the desire of people,could had great effect on turn people to homosexuality.

I tend to find them unreliable

Ask anyone knows Arabic,seems you don't trust me.

But where are the laws involved?

As involve in practice the worship.

Yeah, definitely. So that excludes having sex with animals because that causes violence. I'm gonna quote from somewhere - "In pedophilia [and bestiality] there is only violence, and in homosexuality there is only love.

If there is no voilence ?

back to start point,so it's ok that human sex with animal(when cause no voilence and suffering)?

Just curious what cases are immorals in your view about sex ?

I wouldn't say so, although certainly I'm not devoid of arrogance. But in the case of homophobia, as in the cases of racism, misogyny, classism, Muslimphobia and other forms of bigotry, my views have become very firm. And that's because time and time again I've seen evidence of how people's lives are destroyed by these ideas. I have seen how people suffer because they're gay but are told they shouldn't be. I've seen the suffering they inflict upon others in turn, on account of that hatred which has been inflicted upon them. I certainly don't own all knowledge and truth. But the evidence on this particular aspect of this particular subject is overwhelming, and it takes a agenda to ignore it.

I do believe homosexuality could turn to straight,

Yes I find it arrogance that you denied the sources that I posted, you just believe in one or twice case.

 

[Kirran]

God , so media who control the desire of people,could had great effect on turn people to homosexuality.

You can't turn people gay. You can turn them to or from their homophobia though.

Ask anyone knows Arabic,seems you don't trust me.

No, that's OK, I'll trust your word on it.

As involve in practice the worship.

How do you mean law, then? Maybe you are misunderstanding the word's meaning - a law is like a rule, something you have to do or not do.

If there is no voilence ?

back to start point,so it's ok that human sex with animal(when cause no voilence and suffering)?

Just curious what cases are immorals in your view about sex ?

Well I think that a human having sex with an animal is near inevitably causing suffering, it is a violent act.

I do believe homosexuality could turn to straight,

Yes I find it arrogance that you denied the sources that I posted, you just believe in one or twice case.

You believe that on blind faith, then.

I explained to you that I know Conservapedia, and I know it is not reliable based on previous experience. I also looked at the source you posted in detail, and looked at their source material. Based upon this, I don't trust what it says, and it contradicts evidence from better-supported sources and from my own experience.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

It's fact.

You've obviously not heard of something called colonic irrigation - which involves washing out the insides of someone's downside.

That's odd cases , most humans are heterosexual.
there is plenty of cases where gays married to women.

That doesn't mean gay men (or lesbian women) are actually attracted to the person they've married. They're sometimes pressured into such marriages by their families or by society at large. A gay man could have sex with a woman dozens of times and feel revulsion & self-loathing because it's not who they are.

It's proved that some gay turned straight.

No it isn't. You've been told why this is untrue numerous times. If you keep repeating it I'm going to start suspecting that you're either caught in an echo chamber - and thus are incapable of taking on board conflicting opinions - or are wilfully trying to deceive us.

I do believe homosexuality could turn to straight,

You're entitled to your own beliefs but not to your own facts. You have no right to complain or accuse others of arrogance when people point out that your unevidenced beliefs conflict with observable reality - and still expect to be taken seriously.

Yes I find it arrogance that you denied the sources that I posted, you just believe in one or twice case.

Not surprised that I'd read this from a Muslim, frankly. Anything other than blind agreement = arrogance to you. This is the level of critical thought your religion actively encourages; 'X is so because I say it is and if you disagree then you're arrogant/a non-believer/an apostate (insert as appropriate)'. Oh, and examining & critiquing the other person's sources to see if their arguments are logically founded is part of how debate works.

 

[Kirran]

That doesn't mean gay men (or lesbian women) are actually attracted to the person they've married. They're sometimes pressured into such marriages by their families or by society at large. A gay man could have sex with a woman dozens of times and feel revulsion & self-loathing because it's not who they are.

Not to mention how that hatred can manifest in broken relationships, domestic violence and other forms of violence, including being a substantial contributor to terrorism.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Not to mention how that hatred can manifest in broken relationships, domestic violence and other forms of violence, including being a substantial contributor to terrorism.

Exactly. But apparently this is all a greater love than what two men or two women feel for each other.

 

[Kirran]

Exactly. But apparently this is all a greater love than what two men or two women feel for each other.

There's such a sad lack of reasoning in this thinking. But we move forward. Progress is inevitable. We're seeing it around the world.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It's fact.

Then prove it with something that's not biased and false.

That's odd cases , most humans are heterosexual.

So?

there is plenty of cases where gays married to women.

Yeah, that's called a "beard". It where homosexuals pretend to live "normal" lives so that people don't discriminate them or worse.

It's proved that some gay turned straight.

Again, prove it then.

 

[Kirran]

Godobeyer, how would you feel getting married to a man? It would be weird, right? You'd feel like you were faking it? That's a taste of how a gay person feels married to a person of the opposite sex. Except often it's much worse, because they are taught to deny this part of themselves, leading to self-hatred manifesting as violence. We can see examples of this in the attacks on Orlando and in Nice as well.

 

[Notanumber]

What is the meaning of this?

* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn مصنف و لم يتم تدقيقه بعد
{ وَيَطُوفُ عَلَيْهِمْ غِلْمَانٌ لَّهُمْ كَأَنَّهُمْ لُؤْلُؤٌ مَّكْنُونٌ }

And there will circulate from all around them for service youths delicate in demeanour of their own as if in terms of their beauty and immaculateness they were hidden pearls preserved inside shells because when it a pearl is inside it it is better than one that is not.

 

[sovietchild]

What is the meaning of this?

* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn مصنف و لم يتم تدقيقه بعد
{ وَيَطُوفُ عَلَيْهِمْ غِلْمَانٌ لَّهُمْ كَأَنَّهُمْ لُؤْلُؤٌ مَّكْنُونٌ }

And there will circulate from all around them for service youths delicate in demeanour of their own as if in terms of their beauty and immaculateness they were hidden pearls preserved inside shells because when it a pearl is inside it it is better than one that is not.

How many muslims know how to read Arabic?

 

[Kirran]

How many muslims know how to read Arabic?

Good question-answering.

 

[Notanumber]

How many muslims know how to read Arabic?

This might help with your understanding.

Quran (4:16) - "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone" This is the Yusuf Ali translation. The original Arabic does not use the word "men" and simply says "two from among you." Yusuf Ali may have added the word "men" because the verse seems to refer to a different set than referred to in the prior verse (explicitly denoted as "your women"). In other words, since 4:15 refers to "your women", 4:16 is presumably written to and refers to men.

Interestingly, the same rules don't seem to apply in paradise, where martyrs for the cause of Allah enjoy an orgy of virgins and "perpetual youth" Quran (56:17) (interpreted by many to mean "boys" Quran (52:24)). Quran (76:19) bluntly states, "And immortal boys will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls." Technically, the mere presence of boys doesn't necessarily mean sex, however it is strongly implied from the particular emphasis on the effeminacy, handsomeness and "freshness" of the boys. The female virgins of paradise are also compared to pearls (56:23).

 

[Sakeenah]

This might help with your understanding.

Quran (4:16) - "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone" This is the Yusuf Ali translation. The original Arabic does not use the word "men" and simply says "two from among you." Yusuf Ali may have added the word "men" because the verse seems to refer to a different set than referred to in the prior verse (explicitly denoted as "your women"). In other words, since 4:15 refers to "your women", 4:16 is presumably written to and refers to men.

Interestingly, the same rules don't seem to apply in paradise, where martyrs for the cause of Allah enjoy an orgy of virgins and "perpetual youth" Quran (56:17) (interpreted by many to mean "boys" Quran (52:24)). Quran (76:19) bluntly states, "And immortal boys will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls." Technically, the mere presence of boys doesn't necessarily mean sex, however it is strongly implied from the particular emphasis on the effeminacy, handsomeness and "freshness" of the boys. The female virgins of paradise are also compared to pearls (56:23).

You are quoting and linking three verses that have totally different meanings and based on that you gave a incorrect exegesis.

وَيَطُوفُ عَلَيْهِمْ غِلْمَانٌ لَّهُمْ كَأَنَّهُمْ لُؤْلُؤٌ مَّكْنُونٌ
And there will go round boy-servants of theirs to serve them as if they were preserved pearls.(52:24)

If you really want to understand this verse you have to read it in context and that means reading the verses before and after it.
The verses before this one are describing how the people of Paradise will sit together to talk,eat and drink. This verse gives the description of the servants and aids.Their servants will be beautiful, graceful in appearance, clean and neat as well-preserved pearls. If you are familiar with the description of Paradise in the Quran you would understand that the rivers,palaces,thrones,clothes,people in Paradise are often described in these words to emphasise the fact that the beauty in Paradise is greater than that of this world. Like you mentioned there's nothing sexual about this verse.

But to proof your point you quoted 4:16 that has nothing to do with the previous verse. 5:24 is part of the description of paradise verses like I have explained and 4:16 is one of the verses that deal with the punishments under Islamic law.

وَاللَّذَانَ يَأْتِيَـنِهَا مِنكُمْ فَـَاذُوهُمَا فَإِن تَابَا وَأَصْلَحَا فَأَعْرِضُواْ عَنْهُمَآ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً

16. And the two persons among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, punish them both. And if they repent and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allah is Ever the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful.)

This verse isn't referring to two men, it's referring to anyone who has
consensual sexual relations outside of marriage.

I don't think you have understood these verses correctly 55:17,52:24,76:19 are all about the same thing,see my explanation of verse 52:24 in the begin of my post.
In the Quran certain concepts are repeated in different chapters.

In regards to the martyrs and their rewards in Paradise that's also part of the description of paradise.I'm not sure why you didn't quote the verse mentioning this. But I think you're referring to chapter 56

- وَحُورٌ عِينٌ - كَأَمْثَـلِ اللُّؤْلُؤِ الْمَكْنُونِ - جَزَآءً بِمَا كَانُواْ يَعْمَلُونَ - لاَ يَسْمَعُونَ فِيهَا لَغْواً وَلاَ تَأْثِيماً -

(22. And (there will be) Hur with wide lovely eyes.) (23. Like preserved pearls.) (24. A reward for what they used to do.) (25. No Laghw (evil vain talk) will they hear therein, nor any sinful speech.)

Yes according to this verse believing men will get hur al ayn in jannah. But it's clearly mentioned in the Quran that the hur al ayn are women.Again I can't understand how this verse relates to 52:24.

I understand that you disagree with verses in the Quran but try to make your point without copying and pasting verses ,taking them out of context and giving your own incorrect explanation.

 

[Notanumber]

Hadith and Sira
Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death." (Note the implicit approval of sodomizing one's wife).

Sahih Bukhari (72:774) - "The Prophet cursed effeminate men (those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, 'Turn them out of your houses .' The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."

Reliance of the Traveller, p17.2 - "May Allah curse him who does what Lot's people did." This is also repeated in three other places.

There are also several lesser hadith stating, "if a man comes upon a man, then they are both adulterers," "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses," "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes," and "Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to."

Islam and Homosexuality

 

[Kirran]

All hadith are somewhat suspect, let's remember. And even among those Muslims who take the Qur'an as word-for-word God's word, there are those who don't see in it a prohibition of homosexuality or of homosexual relationships. And there are of course Muslims who see God's revelation as having come to us filtered by cultural lenses and historical circumstances in the form of the Qur'an anyway.