What is wrong with religion?

[capslockf9]

However religions at least try to explain things like the following:

1) Why is it that some die of cancer while others die with a smile on their face.

2) why is it that some survives the war while others die in it?

3) why is it that some are born without a limb while others are born normal.

some of the things just can't be explained satisfactorily by science alone.

This nervous activity or energy is concerned with the preservation of the organism's life.
So that means that any fear is ultimately fear of dying. Fear of flying, fear of cats, fear of bugs, fear of being alone, etc. are ultimately fear of dying.

Phenomena like diseases, wars, birth defects, adverse weather, etc. instill fear . And again we formulate ideas . One common idea is that God did it. And there are things we can do to avoid his wrath.
And so we misexplain the phenomena and some live in a contracted, smaller, more closed ,less enlighten mind.

 

[DeepShadow]

All religions are egotistical Productions. A nervous activity that participates in survival tactics for the human organism has conjured religion. Fear as tactic of survival has produced many misconceptions. This same fear prevent many humans from living a full and open life. This same fear has created nationalities, race, patriotism, immenent domain, and many other prisons and / or deterents for a real and rewarding life.`

What an extraordinary claim. Got any proof?

 

[Smoke]

However religions at least try to explain things like the following:

1) Why is it that some die of cancer while others die with a smile on their face.

2) why is it that some survives the war while others die in it?

3) why is it that some are born without a limb while others are born normal.

some of the things just can't be explained satisfactorily by science alone.

I guess that's a good thing, as long as you don't care whether the explanations are accurate or convincing.

 

[capslockf9]

What an extraordinary claim. Got any proof?

Not extraordianary but just ordinary.
Fear is a surval instinct. Fear of a charging bull is physical fear. The second type of fear ( is phsychological fear) that has produced much suffering of mankind is fear of the unknown.
And so we have come up with ideas to try to explain the unknown. All religions are attempts to explain the unknown.

 

[rojse]

However religions at least try to explain things like the following:

1) Why is it that some die of cancer while others die with a smile on their face.

2) why is it that some survives the war while others die in it?

3) why is it that some are born without a limb while others are born normal.

some of the things just can't be explained satisfactorily by science alone.

I don't want to try and explain all of that with the assumption of the loving God. I might explain it through the assumption of the presence of an unloving God, though.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

well if ur God did create everything then he also created cancer, viruses and death. Why even create theses misfortunes? unless he likes to see people suffer. He might as well just take away the free will and so no one will suffer the misfortunes.

He is testing his creation for we will be asked about it later. All of those things are as He says just a test, do you think that if you say I believe you will not be tested you will be tested the most if you are a believer.

And just so you know if you catch a disease or something you may be martyred from it depending on the situation and when you are patient and fear Allah He rewards you for dealing with the sickness it raises your status because even in the bad there is good but only if you are patient and you are patient for the sake of Allah and His reward.

As far as death everyone will taste it. Everyone will die it is one of the only true certainties in this life. so why not be ready for it. For when you die the next stage of existence begins for you will be asked by Allah about what you have done, and if you reject Allah, His Messenger and all that He has given you then you will be as Allah says among the losers.

What about babies born of HIV? did ur God also created the HIV babies?

Well if they die, they go to Paradise would you not want that for them. Who would not want them to have eternal bliss and enjoyment for all eternity.

another thing is that a divine being should not have the slightest desire to kill any living being either by fire or flood or any other means.

So we are to be immortal then? Is this it. We are to just live forever and Allah takes not the souls back from anyone even though He gave it to you and really owns it. If I gave you a car I built for you to use should I not be able to come and get it whenever I want. I mean its my car right?

And anything created by the Creator should have no desire to disrespect or dishonor the one who gave you all the blessings you have in this life, you should as you did your parents obey Allah. And if Allah gave you life and told you to live it for you and you decided not to, do you still feel you deserve to live.

 

[storm2020]

"Originally Posted by vandervalley
However religions at least try to explain things like the following:

1) Why is it that some die of cancer while others die with a smile on their face.

2) why is it that some survives the war while others die in it?

3) why is it that some are born without a limb while others are born normal.

some of the things just can't be explained satisfactorily by science alone."

But religion doesn't explain this either! Many religious people whove dedicated their lives to doing good die horrible deaths and tragically young and some live to 100yrs and die in their sleep. What does that prove? That death is to some extent random. Who lives and dies in war has nothing to do with religious belief. PLus your third point can be explained very well with science thank you.

So if you are diagnosed with cancer Vandervalley i take it you will not turn to science to cure it. God will either kill or cure you right?

 

[vandervalley]

But religion doesn't explain this either!

Really? I thouhgt Christians believe that God decides who dies and who lives and also in what ways people die in.

Another example: Buddhists believe that the way people die in has a lot to do with the karma comitted before.

PLus your third point can be explained very well with science thank you.

Would u please be kind enough as to enligten me with ur scientific explanations to my 3rd point. Thanks.

So if you are diagnosed with cancer Vandervalley i take it you will not turn to science to cure it. God will either kill or cure you right?

Some die even though they received chemotherapy while others live after the treatment? Why is that?

Some people's cancer cells keep on growing back while others have their cancer firmly under control after a few treatment. Why is that?

All due to luck?

 

[vandervalley]

He is testing his creation for we will be asked about it later. All of those things are as He says just a test, do you think that if you say I believe you will not be tested you will be tested the most if you are a believer.

So what if one "fails" the test? God knew that some of us would "fail" the test before he gives us the free will right? So the question goes back to the very begining:

WHY even consider giving people free will when he knows that some will "fail" his tests and be condemned to suffering? Does this mean he likes to see people "failing" the tests and be sent to hell to suffer?

Well if they die, they go to Paradise would you not want that for them. Who would not want them to have eternal bliss and enjoyment for all eternity.

So even a non-Muslim HIV baby can go to heaven? I learn something new everyday in this forum

And anything created by the Creator should have no desire to disrespect or dishonor the one who gave you all the blessings you have in this life, you should as you did your parents obey Allah. And if Allah gave you life and told you to live it for you and you decided not to, do you still feel you deserve to live.

So u think that a truly Divine being can have the desire to take anyone's life as it wishes?

Think with your common sense. Is this "desire" to create suffering a righteous thing?

Is it the right thing to do to kill innocent lifes by fire or flood or by diseases? What do u think?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

So what if one "fails" the test? God knew that some of us would "fail" the test before he gives us the free will right? So the question goes back to the very begining:

WHY even consider giving people free will when he knows that some will "fail" his tests and be condemned to suffering? Does this mean he likes to see people "failing" the tests and be sent to hell to suffer?

No, it does not mean that at all. Allah is the Creator and He is the Most Giving, Most Merciful, google the 99 attributes of Allah. He is all those things but He is also the Just. He is the creator of the supreme justice where no one is wronged and everything in His creation will get what his own hands have brought. If you fail the test it is because of your denial of Allah and all He has done for you. Irrelevant as to whether you think He should have created you or not. He has and you have a responsibility and a trust with all the blessings He has given you. He is only asking you to believe, so if you or anyone decides to say Oh I do not want to do that, that is your decision. The Creator is giving you an oppurtunity now, talking to me or any other muslim to believe and be of those who submit. Allah is giving you all the answers to the test yet, you and many others still refuse. Why as I have asked before we are so quick to obey our parents, loved ones, guardians etc for the little they have done for us. When Allah has done everything for us, He gave you the parents and all the love they have for you comes from them. what about the abiltity to walk, see, hear, etc. Money, food, drink everything that exists that we benefit from which number cannot even be counted yet, we as a people still neglect and deny the Benefactor of all the benefits we get out of life.

If God did not give us free will then there would be no test. And what is the benefit of finishing or being given a test. it is to see what your reward will be for what effort you put in to passing it. So why be given paradise without earning it, for if you knew what it was you would sacrifice everything in this life for it.

So even a non-Muslim HIV baby can go to heaven? I learn something new everyday in this forum

All children are born muslim, everyone is born "submitting to the will of Allah" did you bargain or your parents state when they wanted you to be born, or were you born because Allah said you are born at this particular time. all children who die in a state where they have no responsibility or true knowledge of what they should and should not do go to Jannah because they are born muslim their parents, guardians, and society etc. change it.

So u think that a truly Divine being can have the desire to take anyone's life as it wishes?

He created you, and gave you everything you have so you do not own yourself he does. If I made a car and decided to put it in the junk yard, am I not allowed to do it what can you or the car do to stop me, if I have complete and total power which Allah does.

Is it the right thing to do to kill innocent lifes by fire or flood or by diseases? What do u think?

Is it right to deny the Benefactor who has given you all benefits of living. Is it right to try and take the rights of the Creator. Who are we to question what Allah does with us. He created us and gave us everything did you sign a contract with Allah saying your life would be peaches and cream. Or did Allah say he will test us and try us and the devil will constantly try to misguide us from the truth of Allah. that is the issue. Are you going to submit or not. Are you going to accept the truth from Allah and save yourself from His punishment, do you want His mercy. If the answer is no, its all on you buddy.

 

[storm2020]

Really? I thouhgt Christians believe that God decides who dies and who lives and also in what ways people die in.

Another example: Buddhists believe that the way people die in has a lot to do with the karma comitted before.



Would u please be kind enough as to enligten me with ur scientific explanations to my 3rd point. Thanks.

Mutations, drugs etc can all cause deformaties. Not everyone uses drugs and not everyone is exposed to conditions that cause mutations and some mutations are random, hence some children born without all limbs and some are.

Some die even though they received chemotherapy while others live after the treatment? Why is that?

Some people's cancer cells keep on growing back while others have their cancer firmly under control after a few treatment. Why is that?

All due to luck?

Actually it can be due to progression and argression of cancer. Also a persons defences if a person is mentally strong or just gives in.
A large part of death is random yes.
And when i read your other posts you seem to be arguing for youself so do you have a stance on this topic or do you just like arguing by saying nonsensical things?

 

[vandervalley]

Actually it can be due to progression and argression of cancer. Also a persons defences if a person is mentally strong or just gives in.

Don't u think there is a reason why some got a more aggressive cancer than others?

A large part of death is random yes.

Well that's very "scientific". Just blame everything on luck.

And when i read your other posts you seem to be arguing for youself so do you have a stance on this topic or do you just like arguing by saying nonsensical things?

Have u read post #289? That's my stance on this topic.

 

[vandervalley]

If you fail the test it is because of your denial of Allah and all He has done for you.

If ur god exists then It's because ur god give free will to people thats why people will fail his tests.

If no free will is given then no one will suffer or fail the tests.

All children are born muslim, everyone is born "submitting to the will of Allah" did you bargain or your parents state when they wanted you to be born, or were you born because Allah said you are born at this particular time. all children who die in a state where they have no responsibility or true knowledge of what they should and should not do go to Jannah because they are born muslim their parents, guardians, and society etc. change it.

So what if a HIV person grows up and never had the chance to learn Islam? can that person go to heaven?

If the answer is no then god deliberately made a person born with HIV and thus like to see some of his creation suffer from the cradle to the grave.

He created you, and gave you everything you have so you do not own yourself he does. If I made a car and decided to put it in the junk yard, am I not allowed to do it what can you or the car do to stop me, if I have complete and total power which Allah does.

A car feels no pain but a human does. Why even bother creating a living person that feels pain then decideds to dump it whenever he likes it? Does that sound like a loving God? If you are a loving God would u want ur creation to die in pain or die peacefully?

This again shows that a truly Divine being should not have the desire to kill especially kill something he create.

Is it right to deny the Benefactor who has given you all benefits of living.

It's right becasue if it's not right then free will should not be given. This is where Abrahmic religion is wrong; it's wrong because the whole fundamental doctrine doesn't sound right.

 

[storm2020]

Don't u think there is a reason why some got a more aggressive cancer than others?

Yes but it sure isn't anything to do with a god or religion or how moral or imoral you are.

Well that's very "scientific". Just blame everything on luck.

I didn't say it was luck. I actually said that death on a large part is random. ie. accidental deaths. Diseases are a lot to do with genetics and health.

Have u read post #289? That's my stance on this topic.

And yet you argue with other users who are saying the same as you. You argue against god and you argue against science. So what do you actually believe?

 

[vandervalley]

I didn't say it was luck. I actually said that death on a large part is random. ie. accidental deaths.

So in this case; what is the difference between "luck" and "random"?

Diseases are a lot to do with genetics and health.

Why do u think some got bad genes and poor health?

Don't you think there is something behind all these misfortunes?

And yet you argue with other users who are saying the same as you. You argue against god and you argue against science. So what do you actually believe?

lol

I can see that in your universe there are only 2 groups of people. One group being the one-god worshippers and the other group "the atheists".

Maybe you are not aware of another group of people who believe that every misfortune has a reason beyond the scientific explanations; and its not because a violent god/gods

Here is a quote from post #289

On the other hand; if you kill innocent people or preach teachings that has the potential of killing the innocent people; you will suffer by the deeds you done; let it be in this life or the next or the one after. Again; regardless whether you believe in a God/Gods or not.

 

[Bishka]

This has probably been said, but what I see wrong with 'religion' are some of the people.

 

[storm2020]

So in this case; what is the difference between "luck" and "random"?



Why do u think some got bad genes and poor health?

Don't you think there is something behind all these misfortunes?

NO. some get bad genes because they inherit them. And if you want to know "WHY?" (your fav Q i know), study geneology and find some answers for yourself.

lol [/QUOTE]

Ah how the ignorant laugh. Luck is not the same as random. Random is not effected by charms, come in streaks, on certain days, attatch itself to people or habits.

I can see that in your universe there are only 2 groups of people. One group being the one-god worshippers and the other group "the atheists".

Maybe you are not aware of another group of people who believe that every misfortune has a reason beyond the scientific explanations; and its not because a violent god/gods

I'm aware there are not two groups but you hardly made you opinions clear. You've just asked "why?" to everyhing anyone's ever said. Nothing you've said has any basis in fact evidence or logic its just a lot of why? why? why? and then when it's explained, why? again.

I believe the original thread is wats wrong with religion. I believe it is going a little off topic.

 

[storm2020]

"you will suffer by the deeds you done; let it be in this life or the next or the one after. Again; regardless whether you believe in a God/Gods or not."

Sounds religious to me.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

If ur god exists then It's because ur god give free will to people thats why people will fail his tests.

If no free will is given then no one will suffer or fail the tests.

If people were not arrogant to God and submit then they would not fail the test so the responsibility is on the individual. I am talking to you now about Islam and you reject it. It is your choice. Allah did not make you reject His Message of submission. You are choosing to do that. So whose fault is it. He is putting a muslim and His religion in your face. The opportunity for you to submit to Allah is staring you in the face. It is only a proposition an invitation I and any muslim offer you. If you refuse it then the curse of Allah is upon you and all those who reject it. this is His promise and you will be asked about this little discussion we are having. So the choice is yours accept or reject. It does not matter to me for this is about you not me. You will be the one standing before the Creator of the Heavens and earth trying to justify why you rejected the Message when it was presented. And when Hellfire is dragged forth on the Day of Judgment, with 70,000 bridles each with bridle with 70,000 angels and you hear the roar of hellfire seeking and wanting those who disbelieve and the heat of it which is 7 times the fire of anything you have seen in creation. Whether a supernova or the hottest sun in existence then you will and everyone including myself will know.

So what if a HIV person grows up and never had the chance to learn Islam? can that person go to heaven?

every person on the planet has a chance unless he or she is living in a jungle somewhere completely isolated from any secular somewhat educated society where they have access to books and information. With the internet and media, libraries and information flowing at everyones fingertips if a person chooses not to learn or seek the truth about Allah again it is on them. If it is the person who is isolated he will have he chance on the Day of Judgment but thats another topic.

A car feels no pain but a human does. Why even bother creating a living person that feels pain then decideds to dump it whenever he likes it? Does that sound like a loving God? If you are a loving God would u want ur creation to die in pain or die peacefully?

Death is one of the only trues in life. whether in pain or not at the time of death is irrelevant. Because the Messenger of Allah said everyone will feel death and it is painful for everyone. some more then others but all will feel pain. Now the real issue is are you dying in a state other then submission to God. Because that is where the beginning or your eternal existence begins. for death is not the final stage.

This again shows that a truly Divine being should not have the desire to kill especially kill something he create.

It's right becasue if it's not right then free will should not be given. This is where Abrahmic religion is wrong; it's wrong because the whole fundamental doctrine doesn't sound right.

then why be rewarded by Allah. for the reward is for those who submit and the punishment is for those who reject.

 

[Smoke]

If people were not arrogant to God and submit then they would not fail the test so the responsibility is on the individual. I am talking to you now about Islam and you reject it. It is your choice. Allah did not make you reject His Message of submission. You are choosing to do that.

That's another objection to certain religions. Too many of them encourage their adherents to confuse their opinions and fantasies with God's, and submission to their oracles with submission to God.