What is wrong with idol worship?

[Jayhawker Soule]

This has been said many time here. THE IDOLS ARE NOT WORSHIP, THE JUST REPRESENT THE GODS THAT ARE.

And, from the perspective of Judaism, it is a representation that presumes, distorts, and diminishes.

 

[blackout]

Well there is also the idea of "things" being idols in the sense
that they are the all important and sustaining factors in a person's life.

Money, position, power, a cause, religion, science, trend, fashion,
celebrities, media, music, a person, lover, group or family member...
your belongings, your decor, really.... could be anything.

And still I like "I-doll",
because these things either become "stand in's" for the SELF-- or the "I"...
or a deepened and very personal experience of the self-- or the "I".
If you live through a thing....
or a thing lives through you...
well it could be good or bad.

*If these "things" you choose & raise up in your life,
serve to elevate the deeper self,
then they are I-dolls brought to life in you.
and they actually do serve to enrich you.
They empower you.
They bring you ever more to life.
They impart deeper understanding of self and life.
They become a TRUE magic(k) for you.
They become a WORKING vehicle.
Your personal vehicle.
They "become" divinity or magic REALized in your life
and serve to manifest your path.

*If these other things are what you are trying to live THROUGH,
(as if to take the place of some unknown self)
then they are just "knock offs"...
cheap plastic mass marketed "I-dolls".
Which really should just be called mass-dolls.
In this case they are dead & useless idols.
They do nothing but "stand for" (or "stand in for")
a dead, dying, missing, hidden, despised or neglected self.
But they will not make you "real",
bring you to life,
or empower you in any way.
One cannot LIVE through a "dead" thing.

Our identities will always be tied to "things",
both physical & conceptual....
We are conceptual beings living in a physical world.

We all have I-dolls.

Not one of us doesn't.

 

[Wandered Off]

As has been stated already in a different way, ALL worship is idolatry. It's nothing more than a by-product of the way we process information, not something to get all bent about.

We do not experience anything directly. Perception comes in through our imperfect senses and is filtered by our imperfect brains. How does this relate to idolatry? Well...

If you were to have the misfortune to meet me in person, you would see me. But only sort of... What you "see" is an image that is processed through your eyes, interpreted in your brain against prior memories and contexts, and what you end up with is kind of like a little mental TV projection -- an idol. I am not in your brain. Only an image of me is in your brain, and it's an image graven by your perception and mental processing.

Your image has a fair chance of being pretty accurate in some ways because I provide a physical referent you could study over time. However, spiritual things have no physical referent, so the chances you would have an accurate image (idol) are diminished that much more.

 

[Darkwater]

See that? The Goddess, in me has arisen.
...and Manifest before me as well, in great love.

Truly. she has.:rainbow1:

Ultra has enriched my reality beyond measure.

(ummm.... you can get up off your knees now DW. lulz.
yer pretty darn Ultra of your own kind. heh.)

:clap

The last person(since my own Xeper) to tell me to get off my knees was the first godess I ever met,whom I thought would surely kill me as she had a bad(completely undeserved) reputation,just because with great healing does come great destruction.

She laughed softly & interestedly,then told me to meet everything upon the level too,including herself.

By way of your I-doll you are coming together in ecstatic self love,this deity of your self is empowering your Xeper....You are greater within your own image.

This is self deification,realising your godhood,your divinity,identifying yourself,accepting yourself & loving yourself unconditionally.

Be the Godess.....I approach you in love,with my usual firm but humble confidence I arise.

True to Universal Law,such self love does naturally attract great love from everything all around you,all the good things do materialise or make manifest in your love.......I love you & your love gives me strength.

You are godseed,borne of the very same things which make up the stars....once you realise you have harnessed the energy of a star,we move on to clusters.

Then you draw great love,you need it to balance as it needs you on a cosmic scale.

Then greater allignment to source can follow as you combine,unite & unify.

:candle:

Cumi Talitha,Cumi....

 

[Willamena]

I don't understand why people look down on idol-worshippers, isn't it just another kind of worship, just as legitimate as any other?

It is essentially worshipping yourself (regardless of the object of idolatry).

 

[Peace4all]

exchange the the word "Veda" for any religion you like they all fit , "one size fits all"

no not really. Abrahamic religions at least seem to have some validity because the stories are similar through the Quran, Towrah, and Bible. The Veda however is derived frmo a wide mixture of beliefs and was often used just as a tool to unite indians under one banner (like the Gupta empire).

oh and btw "Veda" is a book not a religion.

 

[.lava]

That's because there are all different Gods(deities), they are not all the same. Like you and me, Zeus and Allah. Or even Odin and Ra.

and the difference between you and me is that i say Allah is the only one and you say God is just one of them. we are different, that's for sure i would have one question just to understand our logic. if God, Odin, Ra...etc were equal then who's the source of them?


.

 

[Azakel]

and the difference between you and me is that i say Allah is the only one and you say God is just one of them. we are different, that's for sure i would have one question just to understand our logic. if God, Odin, Ra...etc were equal then who's the source of them?


.

Not sure, the same source that we come from?

 

[Surya Deva]

I was learning about Hinduism and their roots in Jainism and Buddhism in AP World History today. No offense, but the Veda just seems like a huge collection of fairy tales derived from nothing. I mean how does one reach the conclusion that there are 3 gods, they come in many disguises, and often hive thousands of eyes and mouths?? Hinduism represents such a wide array of beliefs that I hesitate to call it a religion.

I am not sure where this came from! It seems a bit off-topic, but now that you have raised it, I must address it like a good Hindu, and I'll try to steer the discussion back to the topic.

I think you are misinformed about Hinduism. Hinduism does not have its roots in Buddhism and Jainism, because Hinduism is older than Buddhism and Jainism, by several thousands of years by some estimates. Rather, Hinduism has its roots in the Vedas(literally, knowledge) I think you are referring to the Purush Sukta where the verse says, "Thousands of heads has he, thousands of eyes, thousands of feet" this is not a literal meaning, but a metaphorical one giving the sense of something infinite: The hymn is conceptualising the universe as a supreme being(Purush, Pur+usha, before the dawn of creation) and how this supreme being manifests. If you read further(I have provided a translation and commentary in the topic, "Vedas Part 1: Rig Veda" in the Hinduism forum) it says, "he is pervading the whole universe and is beyond the 'ten directions'" It then goes onto tell us that this supreme being is all that exits, and all that will exist. This manifest universe is also that Purush, but Purush is greater than the manifest, the manifest part is only a quarter of that Purush, three quarters remain abstract and eternal. The verse goes onto use a metaphor of a 'sacrifice' to explain how that Purush became the offering of the sacrifice itself to create the universe, to explain how the manifest universe is a transformation of that Purush.

The Vedas often employ the metaphor of eye for suns. It says that infinite are the eyes of the lord in the space i.e., the stars and suns. The word 'head' comes from the Sanskrit 'Sirsa', simply meaning the top part of something. The word 'feet' comes from the Sanskrit 'pat', meaning to fall, to come down, thus is referring to the bottom part of something. The word 'eye' comes from the Sanskrit 'aksah' meaning particle or ray of energy. Thus basically the verse is saying that the supreme being is this infinite being, with infinite higher realms and infinite lower realms, and whose energy or rays shine throughout the whole universe. He is pervading all and beyond all directions.

As you can see from the above Hindus love their metaphors and thus idol-worship and the usage of symbols comes very natural to us. It seems very foreign to a non Hindu when they see our deities with three heads, four arms or with animal heads. If you care to look deeper you will realise how beautiful and poetic these symbols are. Here is a picture of Saraswati:

This is the Hindu goddess of inspiration, beauty, wisdom, art, rivers. Do Hindus really believe that there really is a goddess in heaven that looks like this? If there are, they are obviously not aware that this is a representation. No, there is no goddess that sits on a lotus, plays the sitar, and has four arms. These are all symbolic characteristics of Saraswati inspiration which is a feminine power in the Vedas. The word Saraswati means the one that flows. The qualities associated with Saraswati are inspiration and music represented by the Sitar; knowledge and wisdom represented by the books in her hands and to ones floating on the lilly pad(they are the Vedas); meditation and wisdom represented by the rosary(japa-malla) in her top right hand; beauty and purity represented by the peacock and swan; fluidity/medicinal water represented by the lake.

I am going to make a jibb at the Abrahmic religious folks here; unlike you guys Hindus worship women. Those who don't, are not aware of just how much women are glorified in Hinduism. It is the only religion where women are allowed to participate in religion and even author scriptures(The Vedas have 21 women authors)

Now, I am not sure about you, but I think this is really beautiful art. I can relate to that image directly. I cannot relate to an abstract concept called "beauty", "art", "inspiration" but when it is visually represented like this it captures my mind instantly.

Like Saraswati, every deity you see is simply a representation. Let me do another one and in the interests of gender equality, let this one be a male deity. I will go for Shiva. There are various representations of Shiva: as the balance of the cosmic cycle of creation and destruction(Nataraja) as the male-female principles combined and as the the asceitic. Here is the former most(Nataraja)

This is Shiva while doing his death-dance(Tandava) Perhaps it is horrifying to see such gothic imagery associated with divinity, this blue man with snakes around his neck, seething with fire and doing his dance of death is a nighmarish image. I can hear the Christians shouting "devil-worshippers" but look closer and you will be rewarded with a great meaning.

Where do I begin. Let me first begin with the physical features of Shiva itself: The blue colour of Shiva is represents famous story of how Shiva drank all the poison in the sea. This sea represents the ether substance Akasha which is the fabric of space and time, which is vibrating. His long locks of hair represent the galaxies(akasha ganga) The snake around his neck represents the Kundalini, a dormant sexual energy which is at the base of the spine, which is described as coiled like asnake.

The objects he is carrying: The drum in his top-left hand represents how he sounds the vibrations and from all things in the universe are created. The top right hand is carrying a fireball which represents the destruction of all created things.

His dance and posture: He is shown balancing, this represents how creation and dissolution is balanced by eternal laws. His left hand is in the gesture of the Abhaya Mudra, representing fearlessness and supreme confidence. His right hand is pointed to his raised foot which represents upliftment.

The dwarf represents the demon of ignorance and Shiva's dancing over it represents the conquest of ignorance. The flames represent the manifest universe.

The entire image is a representation of the cycle of creation and destruction and the destruction of ignorance. It is a very apt image for the transient nature of the world, with things constantly being created and renewed and represents death and destruction as not some thing to be feared, but as a necessary principle in the universe. This is a very powerful image and it gives a sense of confidence, fearlessness and sovereingity. Again abstract concepts, but when visualised like this, capture the imagination of the mind.

I did not deal with any deities with animal heads. These are also symbolic representations, such as Ganesha, Ganesha comes the Sanskrit root gana(counting) and Ganesha is associated with memory. As memory is a quality associated with elephants, Ganesha is represented with an elephants head. Ganesha is famously associated with transcribing the Mahabharata epic based on Vyassa's diction (the actual author) this is simply a reference to show Vyaasa wrote the Mahabharata continuously from the memory.


A final point: Hinduism does not believe in a multiplicity of gods. Some Hindus do, who are ignorant of its teachings, but Hinduism itself posits one absolute reality and supreme being which manifests in myriad forms. In Vedanta this absolute reality is none other than the Atman, the unchanging, eternal and infinite consciousness, the self.

 

[Azakel]

And, from the perspective of Judaism, it is a representation that presumes, distorts, and diminishes.

I understand that Jay, but I wasn't asked about Judaism at all. It was about my beliefs. And though I know I can't speak for all, it does seem like many other people that follow a religion that use "Idols" feels the same way. ^_^

 

[Jehonadab]

God cannot be housed in anything made with our hands and to wprship something that is made by our own hands shows disrespect to God.

 

[Surya Deva]

Well, nobody is 'housing' god, they are just using the idol as a symbol to communicate/worship god. The symbol is more powerful because it is physical. One can relate to an image, but relating to an abstract concept is difficult for most. You can either use words or you can use an image, and don't they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Suraj,

One can relate to an image, but relating to an abstract concept is difficult for most. You can either use words or you can use an image, and don't they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

Rather would state that it is difficult for the *MIND* not to *HOLD* on to something [image, words, etc.]. AGREE to that.
HOWEVER the objective is to FREE the MIND from HOLDING on to anything [image, words, etc] any attachment is termed as attachment which finaly has to be dropped; so it is better to do so early on.
HOW - Personally Best thing is to realte to whatever is there in front of you at any given moment. Everything is part of EXISTENCE and this EXISTENCE has come out of that NOTHINGNESS and is also MAYA.
By getting used to shifting the image and relying on what is present one becomes part of that CHANGE itself and is always HERE-NOW at the same time not getting attached to any particular image, word, etc.
Are we understanding each other HERE? if not we can discuss it further.
Love & rgds

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Well, nobody is 'housing' god, they are just using the idol as a symbol to communicate/worship god. The symbol is more powerful because it is physical. One can relate to an image, but relating to an abstract concept is difficult for most. You can either use words or you can use an image, and don't they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

The abrahamic relegions are agains worshipping stones and woods (idols)

please lesten to ibrahim story when he was young from Qura'an ch.21
[51] We bestowed aforetime on Ibrahim his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.

[52] Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"

[53] They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."

[54] He said, "Indeed ye have been in manifest error - ye and your fathers."

[55] They said, "Have you brought us the Truth, or are you one of those who jest?"

[56] He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth. He Who created them (from nothing): and I am a witness to this (truth).

[57] "And by Allah, I have a plan for your idols - after ye go away and turn your backs"...

[58] So he broke them to pieces (all) but the biggest of them, that they might turn (and address themselves) to it.

[59] They said, "Who has done this to our gods? He must indeed be some man of impiety!"

[60] They said, "We heard a youth talk of them: he is called Ibrahim."
[61] They said, "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may bear witness."

[62] They said, "Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Ibrahim?"

[63] He said: "Nay, this was done by, this is their biggest one! Ask them, if they can speak intelligently!"

[64] So they turned to themselves and said, "Surely ye are the ones in the wrong!"

[65] Then were they confounded with shame: (they said) "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!"

[66] (Ibrahim) said, "Do ye then worship, besides Allah, things that can neither be of any good to you nor do you harm?
[67] "Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides Allah! Have ye no sense?"...

[68] They said, "Burn him and protect your gods, if ye do (anything at all)!"

[69] We said, "O Fire! be thou cool. and (a means of) safety for Ibrahim!"

[70] Then they sought a stratagem against him: but We made them the ones that lost most!

 

[kai]

I don't understand why people look down on idol-worshippers, isn't it just another kind of worship, just as legitimate as any other?

Has anyone ever been to a cemetary to visit the grave of someone and found yourself talking out loud or in your mind to the headstone or even just the name on the headstone ? it strikes me as rather similar like a "need" to personify that which isnt there.

 

[Darkwater]

God cannot be housed in anything made with our hands and to wprship something that is made by our own hands shows disrespect to God.

So worship yourself,self deify.

:areyoucra

 

[tomspug]

God is a man-made concept. So it too will never resemble anything close to whatever god is actually like.

Providing that God has never revealed himself to mankind.

 

[Surya Deva]

Rather would state that it is difficult for the *MIND* not to *HOLD* on to something [image, words, etc.]. AGREE to that.
HOWEVER the objective is to FREE the MIND from HOLDING on to anything [image, words, etc] any attachment is termed as attachment which finaly has to be dropped; so it is better to do so early on.

This is actually impossible. The nature of mind is to think, it always need an object to think about. The purpose of meditation is to give the mind a positive object to think about. It can be a physical object or a mental object, a word, a sound, a concept, a question. It makes no difference what the object is. In fact the more physical the object the more powerful, because a physical thing is tangible. Have you read about those countless stories of how through devotion to physical things, people have attained great enlightenment, experienced the greatest love.

It is a dogma, a huge dogma that one should not worship idols. There have been many Idol worshippers that have reached the highests of spiritual excellence. Most people simply do not relate to abstract concepts.

Are we understanding each other HERE? if not we can discuss it further.
Love & rgds

Yes, attachment is not a good thing. It is like trying to love someone, if you become attached to their physical body, you cannot see who they really are. Similarly, people who are against idol worship are attached to a mental concept of god, and they too cannot go beyond it. They create an obstacle for themselves.

 

[Mike182]

This is actually impossible. The nature of mind is to think, it always need an object to think about. The purpose of meditation is to give the mind a positive object to think about. It can be a physical object or a mental object, a word, a sound, a concept, a question. It makes no difference what the object is. In fact the more physical the object the more powerful, because a physical thing is tangible. Have you read about those countless stories of how through devotion to physical things, people have attained great enlightenment, experienced the greatest love.

I agree with this. A lot of meditation used by Western Magicians in organisations like the Golden Dawn and the OTO are based around stilling the mind from distractions in order to just think one chosen thought at a time. The assumptions is that when we don't put in those hours of concentration, our mind is cluttered with multiple thoughts all intertwined, and the furthest we can push ourselves is to only think one chosen thought - But yes, we do always need at least one thing to think about.

 

[Surya Deva]

The abrahamic relegions are agains worshipping stones and woods (idols)

please lesten to ibrahim story when he was young from Qura'an ch.21

Please let us not go down this route: I am well aware that your religion is against idol worship, but the answer, "Idol worship is wrong because it is against my religion" is circular. I am asking for a valid reason why it is wrong .The account you just cited does not help your case, it just makes your religion seem highly intolerant and violent towards others. Your account shows this man Ibrahim smashing to pieces the idols of another religion, what gave him the right to do that? Come on we all know how Islam spread throughout Arabia, Africa, Europe and India, indeed smashing to pieces other religions isn't far from the truth.