1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured What is the Word (John1:1)?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by calm, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. calm

    calm 12/9/2019

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2019
    Messages:
    324
    Ratings:
    +102
    Religion:
    Natsari
    John 1:1 says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    The Word was with God and God Himself is the Word? How does that work? Every man also has his own word and he himself is his own word. With your word you can swear, bless, curse and honour God. Your word is powerful, because through your word you can destruct yourself, but you can also save yourself through your word. Your word reflects your personality, your word is you. It is the same with God, just as we humans have a word, so God has his word.
    It is also written: In the beginning was the Word, and through the Word everything is created - what does that mean?
    God can do with His Word something that our Word cannot do. It can create. The Word is already mentioned in the beginning. For in Genesis 1:3 it says, "And God said, Let there be light. And it became light - "Let there be light" is his word, through his word he created everything. Through his mouth came the Word.
    And this word became flesh, God made his own word to flesh. This flesh is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is His Word and God Himself is Jesus Christ.
     
    #1 calm, Aug 12, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  2. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    9,858
    Ratings:
    +8,475
    Religion:
    none
    It's a translation issue.

    The word logos doesn't mean 'word' in the sense we would use it and is very difficult to translate in a concise manner. Perhaps something closer to 'Divine logic' if you have to translate it.

    For example.

    Philo's Logos as Divine Mediator
    Philo of Alexandria's Logos | Old Testament Pseudepigrapha - School of Divinity, University of St Andrews
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Informative Informative x 2
  3. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Messages:
    1,109
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Protestant
    I love these questions because I went and took time to see what the Bible says about the Trinity.
    Well, John 1 : 1 to 18 say, God (the Father who has an existance in space) had in the beginning His Word (or as we know it as our Mind) and His Spirit with him. This was at the beginning of everything when Tine still did not exist.
    Then The Spirit could exist the Father, and interact with everything the Father created (knowing that God can not die, and if His Spirit leaves His existance, both will live)
    But it was the Word (or Mind) of God that created it all.
    John elaborates and said, the Word who created it all, then came to His creation.
    This He did as a spiritual being called the Word, and entered into a human body.
    This Word, that is God, was seen and experienced by mankind, but they did not know He was God.
    This Word of God that now lived in a human body, was killed and He rose from the dead, becomming the second Adam.
    The First Adam brought Death into creation, and the Word brought everlasting life!

    Actually, John attests to the Triune nature of God YHWH.
    Now lets see what Man can and can not do to answer your question.
    With a slight difference.
    Just as God has a Word we have a Word too because God said, lets Us make man in Our immage, and we know God has the Existance(YHWH Father), Holy Spirit and creating Word.
    But this is how Man was created, before he fell into sin and lost his immortal body and started to age and die.
    God can not die, for sin did not corrupt Him, and canot for God is uncorrupt and without sin. God is also everlasting life.
    I think this is where you get it wrong.
    The Word is not the words God speaks, but the Mind of God.
    This was why the apostles understood the Trinity, and phrased their understanding in this ways.
    Just like you have a Body, a Spirit, and a Mind.
    This was how God created us with His immage.
    God has a Body of light, a Spirit and a Word, or Mind that can leave the body, and return to Him.
    Therefore, one God, with a Spirit and a Mind.
    Just like you.
    If you were to die, and your spirit gets in Gehenna, you will receive a new body like Christ received, like Adam had, and your Spirit will enter that Body.
    In the meantime, your Mind also never left you.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,158
    Ratings:
    +293
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)

    This flesh is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is His Word and God Himself is Jesus Christ.


    [​IMG]

    John 1:1 says: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    If Jesus Christ is the Word and the Word was with God - he is with himself?
    Because the Word was God? There is only One God and who was he with?
    Is Jesus Christ the Father too?
    I know for sure that Jesus Christ is the Son and it would be weird if he is also the Father.
    And if he was the Father it would be outa this world if he is the Holy Spirit.
    Are you telling us that Jesus Christ fathered himself?
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    836
    Ratings:
    +120
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Jesus became the son of God in weakness of the flesh when he was born of Mary. He then became the son of God in power when he was born of the spirit by resurrection from the dead ones.
    Start with those facts and ask yourself how the word could exist before Jesus came into existence and how that word became flesh when Jesus was born of Mary.
     
  6. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    836
    Ratings:
    +120
    Religion:
    Scripture
    The apostles knew nothing of a Trinity. And Jesus himself was not a Trinitarian. His God is his Father.

    When God creates by the word of His power, And that word was made flesh when Jesus came into existence, then that word is what Jesus is called. Therefore, Jesus can be said to have created all things by taking upon himself what the word represents, God. Because the same word which is power to create, is given in full measure to the son by God's spirit.
     
  7. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,226
    Ratings:
    +440
    Religion:
    christian
    Fwiw,
    Heracleon - Commentary on the Gospel of John inj
     
  8. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Messages:
    1,109
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Protestant
    Nope, The Word is the Mind of God. ask yourself, Jesus is the Mind of the Father, and can leave the Father's existance or body. Then The Word is also God, but part of the Father and the Spirit of the Father.
    Ask youself the following:
    is your Mind you?
    If your Mind is someone else, are you not crazy?
    They call it "Multiple personality disorder".
    Just as you have a Mind that is you, and not some other person, this Mind also know you have a spirit and a body brain.
    What do you think?
    if you die, will yor Mind also die?
    What about the Spirit, will it die?
    No, the body dies but the Spirit and Mind continues to live.
    In God's case, the Spirit and Mind can leave the Existance, but the Existance dont die, because God the father (existance) is also immortal.
    You see, if you dont believe in the Mind, Spirit and Body you are comprised of, you will not accept the Trinity at all.
    No, Jesus the Word is God the Father's Mind, The Father can exist without the Mind and Spirit, because it is all part of Him.
    Your Spirit, is not your mind, because your spirit is what keeps you alive, and your mind is what creates your life. Your Body is where you live in and it will die. This body will be replaced by one that was just the same as what Adam received.An immortal body where your spirit and Mind will abide in forever.
    No, Jesus is not the Father, and the father is not the Son, just like your Spirit is not your body, or your mind, and vice versa times 3.
    Again, jesus, the Spirit, and the Father is one God where the Spirit and Mind of the Existance can leave their "Body" and act upon what was created.
    No, this is a strawman made up by many anti trinitarians.
    The Father was in Heaven with His Holy Spirit and His Mind.
    The Father then sent His Mind to the Earth to be born as a human.
    The Holy Spirit came upon a women and changed her body, just as He changed Samson, David, and other prophets, and Jesus was created without the use of a human Man.
    Jesus entered into this fetus, and was born and died as a Man.
    During this time the Father, and the Spirit was in Heaven, and when Jesus was baptised, and during the glorification of Jesus, the father spoke from heaven telling everyone that Jesus is hos only begotten son. meaning, God created Adam, but Jesus was his mind now living in Man. What else that Jesus was the only begotten son of God.
    Even when the Spirit descended upon Jesus at his baptism, do we find the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost all being present as individuals.
    But as Jesus said, Father give me the glory which I had with thee, before everything was!
    So, here we have the Father, and the Spirit leaving the Father descending upon Jesus, and the Mind of YHWH in the form of a man.
    When Jesus ascended into heaven, he again joined the Glory of God which he had before Creation.
    Trinity!!!
     
  9. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Messages:
    1,109
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Protestant
    Not true at all.
    They recorded many things said by jesus that claimed jesus and the Father were one, sharing the glory of the father which Jesus had before creation, and how Jesus will return to the Father ect.
    To claim the apostles did not know that the Father, the Holy spirit, and the Word was not each God, and all One God, is wrong in ignorance.
    Do you know that Philo, who lived during the lives of the Apostles wrote of the 3 attributes of YHWH who was the Son, and the Spirit of God?
    he even called the Son of God, Logos, or Word, and in other places Sophia, (Wisdom).
    This was the thinking of the first century jewish scholars upon the OT!
    isaiah 48: 16 is even quoted by him. Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. This is the creator speaking of the Elohim YHWH and His Spirit who sent Him who created it all!
    Guys, comeon, all the Jewish scholars knew the Old testament.

    So what you say is that God made a smaller God?
    Simply by speaking Jesus was created and jesus being the word of God received the power of creation.
    This is not what the bible say at all.
    jesus identifies as the Word of YHWH, who was with YHWH, and who will return to YHWH.
    He say, no one has descended from "Heaven" but the son of man, and no one ascends to "Heaven' but the Son of man.
    Realy, do you know the word "Heaven" is actually YHWH?
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    The Word is the creator's new law [The Passion] incarnated as human; so, that god's new Law/Word as human will have a personal relationship with those who believe in his creator, the One who sent him. People follow/obey the creator through the new Law/Incarnation rather than the laws of the OT.
     
    #10 Unveiled Artist, Aug 12, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  11. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2016
    Messages:
    8,714
    Ratings:
    +1,446
    Religion:
    Light Impressed with Love

    God made his own word to flesh


    has to do with mind. in the beginning was the thought, idea and the idea,thought is manifested, revealed.


    spirit = mind as ruach

    logos = thought, idea



    1 Corinthians 2:16
    For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.



    1 Corinthians 13:12
    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,574
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Word is the active or personal aspect of g-d, JHVH. This is why jesus and JHVH are both called 'Lord'. This is why monotheism doesn't work when you separate the aspects of G-d.

    In other words, if you separate the aspects of G-d, you derive a different g-d, from the Tetragrammaton , which, although works for a specific type of trinity idea, [presumably, does not work if you use the the Tetragrammaton singly as a description of G-d.

     
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,574
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    John is saying that Jehovah is God, and God manifested as Jesus. This matches a configuration, like this
    Jehovah=God
    Jesus=God

    Holy Spirit=God

    There shouldn't be anything odd about this, since the 'Spirit of The Lord', is associated with the Manifestation, and, it matches 'Lord' usage in the Scriptures.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,158
    Ratings:
    +293
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    If God has a son who is Jesus
    then Jesus is the Son of God
    Jesus is not God but the Son of God

    upload_2019-8-13_8-4-58.jpeg

    Jesus is also born of Mary
    then Jesus is the Son of Mary
    Mary is a woman, a human
    hence Jesus is the son of man
    Jesus is not God because he is the son of man.

    upload_2019-8-13_8-6-28.jpeg


    So what is the Word in John 1:1?
    Is it Jesus Christ himself or something else?

    [​IMG]

    The Word or otherwise known as the Logos
    is something unique in the Book of John.
    Is it Jesus Christ himself, let us check the meaning of the Logos

    Logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”)plural logoi, in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.
    Logos | philosophy and theology | Britannica.com

    The Word or the Logos is the PLAN of God about Jesus Christ
    not Jesus Christ, himself.
    It would be absurd to say the Word is Jesus Christ, to illustrate
    let us replace "the word" with "Jesus Christ" on John 1:1
    and find out if the shoe fits.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was with God, and Jesus Christ was God.

    Are the verses sound?

    Was Jesus Christ existing in the beginning?
    Isn't true that Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem, in a manger?
    Isn't true that Jesus Christ was conceived by Mary who became pregnant through the Holy Spirit?
    [​IMG]

    If Jesus Christ was with God then it follows
    that Jesus Christ isn't God because he was with God.

    What does the Lord God, Father of Jesus Christ has to say about this?

    Isaiah 45:18 New International Version (NIV)
    For this is what the Lord says—
    he who created the heavens,
    he is God;

    he who fashioned and made the earth,
    he founded it;
    he did not create it to be empty,
    but formed it to be inhabited—
    he says:
    “I am the Lord,
    and there is no other.


    Did the Lord God have someone with him when he created the heavens?

    Isaiah 44:24 Good News Translation (GNT)

    “I am the Lord, your savior;
    I am the one who created you.
    I am the Lord, the Creator of all things.
    I alone stretched out the heavens;
    when I made the earth, no one helped me
    .


    Did the prophet Isaiah identify the Son as God?
    Did the prophet Isaiah identify the Holy Spirit as God?
    Who did the prophet Isaiah mention as God who created all things and no one helped him?

    Isaiah 64:8 New International Version (NIV)
    Yet you, Lord, are our Father.
    We are the clay, you are the potter;
    we are all the work of your hand.


    Isaiah identified the Lord God, the Creator of all things as the Father.
    Is Jesus Christ the Father? No he is the Son
    Is the Holy Spirit the Father? Absolutely not.
    Jesus Christ himself revealed who is the ONLY TRUE GOD

    John 17:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)

    Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.


    [​IMG]

    Jesus was looking up to heaven - why?
    Jesus was praying to the Father - and he said what?
    Jesus said it is time to know the way to eternal life
    And what is eternal life?
    To know that the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD
    and that he [Jesus Christ] was sent by the Father

    How about those who did not / do not know about this?
    How about those who refuse to believe the words of Jesus Christ mentioned in John 17:1-3?
    It understood - they are doomed on Judgement Day

    [​IMG]
     
  15. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,158
    Ratings:
    +293
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    The Trinity was an invented doctrine.
    On your reply there seemed be devoid of any bible verse
    but rather opinions

    Man is composed of spirit, soul and body. Not "MIND" - is that the brain, then it would form part of the body.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 New International Version (NIV)
    May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Everybody alive and dead have this spirit, soul and body - even the worst of man [Ted Bundy, Adolf Hitler and the rest of the gang]

    When people die - the spirit [or breath of life] goes back to God. Even the spirit of Hitler went back to God who gave it - and it doesn't mean Hitler is alive.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    CSB
    and the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
    CEB
    before dust returns to the earth as it was before and the life-breath returns to God who gave it.

    The existence of the spirit, soul and body does not prove that the Trinity exist.
    It is not the same thing.
    The spirit is the breath of life
    The soul which is your inner self dies at the time of death
    .
    Psalm 44:25

    LEB
    For our soul is bowed down to the dust. Our body clings to the ground.
    NKJV
    For our soul is bowed down to the dust; Our body clings to the ground.

    The Trinity was invented during the time of Emperors Constantine to Theodosius
    As I have mentioned in the past these people had to form councils to establish this Trinity doctrine

    the First Council of Nicaea of 325 AD - there they voted that Jesus Christ is now God
    and after 56 years have passed
    the First Council of Constantinople of 381 AD - there they voted that the Holy Spirit is now God

    Why is that so?
    Because the Holy Scriptures does conform with the Trinity doctrine and thus the whole world was deceived.

    So what does the Holy Scriptures say?
    What do the first church of Christ believed?
    What did the apostles preached who is God and who is Jesus Christ?

    [​IMG]
     
  16. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2017
    Messages:
    2,158
    Ratings:
    +293
    Religion:
    Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ)
    So if Jesus Christ walked on the earth and his the Mind of the Father - as you say
    When Jesus Christ was speaking hence using the Mind, the Father was Mindless?
    And when the Father was speaking hence using his own Mind, Jesus Christ was Mindless?

    This is the first time I heard this Mind sharing scheme
    [​IMG]

    There were instances when the Father spoke in the presence of Jesus Christ and his apostles:

    Matthew 3:17 New International Version (NIV)
    And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

    Matthew 17:5 New International Version (NIV)
    While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

    And by the way if the Father calls Jesus Christ - "This is my Son..."
    where in the Bible where we can read the Holy Spirit calling the Father or Jesus Christ?
    I know for sure that Jesus Christ called God the Father

    John 20:17 New International Version (NIV)
    Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    Here we can learn that Jesus acknowledged that his Father is also his God.
     
  17. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    836
    Ratings:
    +120
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Bogus! And I'm not going to waste my time with you.
     
  18. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Messages:
    1,109
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Protestant
    Building upon this.
    The Shemach say.
    Hear Israel, YHWH, our Elohim (Eloheinu is our Gods plural), is one YHWH.
    very clearly it shows that we are talking of one God, but with the 3 atributes that acts as God individually.
     
  19. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,574
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    • Like Like x 1
  20. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Messages:
    1,109
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Protestant
    Damm but you are in one's face!
    It wont help you keep on drumming forth.
    We alreeady established that you hate the Trinity, and are totally immune to any debate.
    All you are doing is to ensure that you are ignored and you just dont learn that pasting all these videos and stuff of you burning in Hell, dont impress anyone.
    It is very irratible, and one can not concentrate on what you wrote.
    You are destroying your whole message.

    Please understand that I will not be able to read any of your posts if this is how you want it to appear.
    Simply said, you are making a ridicule of your own message.
    It is sad, but I had to tell you.
    Love,
    I
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...