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What is the US interest in Ukraine?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, I'm not the left (or the right, for that matter) just to clarify. However, I do want to point out that I just wish our media and government would be more honest with us. We aren't fighting for repressed people - we're fighting for our own interests.
I wasn't picking on you.
Just opining generally.
It's your fault for inspiring me.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
I think our western mainstream media gives us the impression that Russia wants to control all of Ukraine regardless of Putin stating otherwise. I have understood from the beginning of this invasion that Russia recognized Lugansk's and Donetsk's independence and went in to secure them and since then they have now become a part of Russia. Lugansk, Donetsk, and Crimea had declared their independence when the democratically elected president of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup in 2014. A referendum allowed Crimea to join Russia and now the same with Donetsk and Lugansk. I have heard it parroted in an echo chamber that the referendums were shams but then I heard the same said of the 2020 elections in the US as well. Evidence is lacking in all cases, but whatever.

So, a border dispute in eastern Ukraine is not a big threat to the rest of Europe and certainly not to the US, but here we are, cheerleading for the "good guys" rather than calling for peace talks.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I think our western mainstream media gives us the impression that Russia wants to control all of Ukraine regardless of Putin stating otherwise. I have understood from the beginning of this invasion that Russia recognized Lugansk's and Donetsk's independence and went in to secure them and since then they have now become a part of Russia. Lugansk, Donetsk, and Crimea had declared their independence when the democratically elected president of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup in 2014. A referendum allowed Crimea to join Russia and now the same with Donetsk and Lugansk. I have heard it parroted in an echo chamber that the referendums were shams but then I heard the same said of the 2020 elections in the US as well. Evidence is lacking in all cases, but whatever.

So, a border dispute in eastern Ukraine is not a big threat to the rest of Europe and certainly not to the US, but here we are, cheerleading for the "good guys" rather than calling for peace talks.

Just tell me what a peace would be like? I asked before and got no answer. If you have figure it out, it would save a lot of lives and indeed you are then in part responsible for not sharing your plan.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Just tell me what a peace would be like? I asked before and got no answer. If you have figure it out, it would save a lot of lives and indeed you are then in part responsible for not sharing your plan.
Each side has to bring to the table the situation as they see it. Whatever each side demands, bring it to the table, review it, discuss it.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Of course. The USA never really gets involved in anything unless it seeks to benefit from it geopolitically.

In this case, they have become involved in the war in Ukraine because Russia expanding westwards is potentially very harmful to NATO relations and potential trade deals with Ukraine. It's in America's geopolitical and economic interests to aid Ukraine.

It also happens to be the morally right thing to do as well, which is a nice bonus.

When the media starts teaching me morals. I tend to zone out. They have ulterior motives generally.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I think our western mainstream media gives us the impression that Russia wants to control all of Ukraine regardless of Putin stating otherwise.
Putin has explicitly stated on several occasions that he considers Ukraine a part of Russia and that the dissolution of the USSR was a tragedy that should never have happened.

I have understood from the beginning of this invasion that Russia recognized Lugansk's and Donetsk's independence and went in to secure them and since then they have now become a part of Russia. Lugansk, Donetsk, and Crimea had declared their independence when the democratically elected president of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup in 2014.
A few things.

1 - Lugansk and Donetsk only "declared their independence" after an extremely overt operation by Russia to install and fund Russian separatists in the region. They are effectively astro-turf organisations that exist entirely as a consequence of Russia. It is hardly surprising that these areas suddenly "totally democratically" elected to become unofficial parts of Russia following them being taken over by separatists armed and supported by Russia at Russia's orders.

2 - Crimea was militarily invaded by Russia. See above. As Russia has repeatedly revealed in their own elections, any genuinely "democratic" component of any vote taking place under any Russian occupied territory is suspect, to say the least.

3 - There was no "coup" against Yanukovich. He was democratically elected, yes, but then proceeded to reject an EU trade agreement that had been in the works for years and instead adopt stronger economic ties with Russia at the urging of Russia - something that was apparently extremely unpopular with the people of Ukraine because it lead to mass protests against Yanukovich (combined with his criminal prosecution of the opposition leader at the time). In response, Yanukovich signed a slieu of anti-protest laws which directly lead to police killing several protesters. In consequence to the reaction, he fled to Russia.

Seems like some pretty important stuff to miss out. It's almost as if you're being dishonest.

Tell me, why did you decide to miss out all of these obviously very important details and present an extremely pro-Russia version of these events?

A referendum allowed Crimea to join Russia and now the same with Donetsk and Lugansk. I have heard it parroted in an echo chamber that the referendums were shams but then I heard the same said of the 2020 elections in the US as well. Evidence is lacking in all cases, but whatever.
You're seriously going to compare the claims of election fraud in 2020 - something that despite the election being thoroughly vetted and investigated several times by numerous agencies produced no evidence of fraud - to the referendums in Russian occupied territory carried out by Russian separatists and overseen by Russia that has had absolutely zero transparency and has never been investigated by any independent agencies?

Are you serious?

So, a border dispute in eastern Ukraine
That's a funny way of saying "Russian-backed and funded insurgency".

is not a big threat to the rest of Europe
It's definitely a threat to Ukraine.

and certainly not to the US,
It is if Russia's expanding influence means America's influence shrinks.

Not that it really matters. Ukraine should be protected.

but here we are, cheerleading for the "good guys" rather than calling for peace talks.
How are you not getting this? Russia isn't engaging in peace talks. Until Russia is actually willing to engage in peace talks, what are we supposed to do? Allow them to rape and kill Ukrainians and take control of the whole country?
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
What does that mean? That until the USA is a crime-free, poverty-free utopia it shouldn't involve itself in any global political situation - even if doing so would benefit the country?
I mean exactly what I said and I didn't say what YOU said.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I mean exactly what I said and I didn't say what YOU said.
That answers one question but, crucially, not the other.

So, do you accept that a country can prioritise its own people while still lending aid to other countries, if it is in its geopolitical interest to do so?
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
That answers one question but, crucially, not the other.

So, do you accept that a country can prioritise its own people while still lending aid to other countries, if it is in its geopolitical interest to do so?
Perhaps but I've not really seen that happen in the US.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Putin has explicitly stated on several occasions that he considers Ukraine a part of Russia and that the dissolution of the USSR was a tragedy that should never have happened.


A few things.

1 - Lugansk and Donetsk only "declared their independence" after an extremely overt operation by Russia to install and fund Russian separatists in the region. They are effectively astro-turf organisations that exist entirely as a consequence of Russia. It is hardly surprising that these areas suddenly "totally democratically" elected to become unofficial parts of Russia following them being taken over by separatists armed and supported by Russia at Russia's orders.

2 - Crimea was militarily invaded by Russia. See above. As Russia has repeatedly revealed in their own elections, any genuinely "democratic" component of any vote taking place under any Russian occupied territory is suspect, to say the least.

3 - There was no "coup" against Yanukovich. He was democratically elected, yes, but then proceeded to reject an EU trade agreement that had been in the works for years and instead adopt stronger economic ties with Russia at the urging of Russia - something that was apparently extremely unpopular with the people of Ukraine because it lead to mass protests against Yanukovich (combined with his criminal prosecution of the opposition leader at the time). In response, Yanukovich signed a slieu of anti-protest laws which directly lead to police killing several protesters. In consequence to the reaction, he fled to Russia.

Seems like some pretty important stuff to miss out. It's almost as if you're being dishonest.

Tell me, why did you decide to miss out all of these obviously very important details and present an extremely pro-Russia version of these events?


You're seriously going to compare the claims of election fraud in 2020 - something that despite the election being thoroughly vetted and investigated several times by numerous agencies produced no evidence of fraud - to the referendums in Russian occupied territory carried out by Russian separatists and overseen by Russia that has had absolutely zero transparency and has never been investigated by any independent agencies?

Are you serious?


That's a funny way of saying "Russian-backed and funded insurgency".


It's definitely a threat to Ukraine.


It is if Russia's expanding influence means America's influence shrinks.

Not that it really matters. Ukraine should be protected.


How are you not getting this? Russia isn't engaging in peace talks. Until Russia is actually willing to engage in peace talks, what are we supposed to do? Allow them to rape and kill Ukrainians and take control of the whole country?
"You're seriously going to compare the claims of election fraud in 2020 - something that despite the election being thoroughly vetted and investigated several times by numerous agencies produced no evidence of fraud - to the referendums in Russian occupied territory carried out by Russian separatists and overseen by Russia that has had absolutely zero transparency and has never been investigated by any independent agencies?

Are you serious?"


So, no evidence either way but you know the truth based on what, faith? I hear the parrots in the echo chamber, and who knows, maybe the border ought not to have been drawn where it was when the Soviet Union dissolved.

East and west Ukraine are divided and a civil war has been ongoing since the Maidan coup, so no one should be surprised that the border is unsettled.

I happen to be opposed to war, they can't be justified, except perhaps by those that claim a moral high ground and cheer for the 'good guys.'
 

lukethethird

unknown member
What does that mean? That until the USA is a crime-free, poverty-free utopia it shouldn't involve itself in any global political situation - even if doing so would benefit the country?
It might benefit the wealthy, powerful, and privileged that want to maintain power and control in the world but the country, the tax payers, really?
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
"You're seriously going to compare the claims of election fraud in 2020 - something that despite the election being thoroughly vetted and investigated several times by numerous agencies produced no evidence of fraud - to the referendums in Russian occupied territory carried out by Russian separatists and overseen by Russia that has had absolutely zero transparency and has never been investigated by any independent agencies?

Are you serious?"


So, no evidence either way but you know the truth based on what, faith? I hear the parrots in the echo chamber, and who knows, maybe the border ought not to have been drawn where it was when the Soviet Union dissolved.

East and west Ukraine are divided and a civil war has been ongoing since the Maidan coup, so no one should be surprised that the border is unsettled.

I happen to be opposed to war, they can't be justified, except perhaps by those that claim a moral high ground and cheer for the 'good guys.'

Yeah, that is your personal opinion. I have another one.
 
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