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Featured What Is The Purpose Of Baptism?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Apr 3, 2019.

  1. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    That's question number one.

    Secondly, is there any meaningful difference between infant baptism and adult baptism; that is, does one confer something the other doesn't?

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  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Christian baptism has a significance that most people (even many Christians) do not fully understand. Some see it as a washing away of their sins but the Bible does not say that.
    1 John 1:7 says..."....the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." So if Jesus was baptized and he had no sin...what did his baptism mean?

    Baptism was not something practiced in Judaism except as a ceremonial cleaning of the utensils used by the priests. Because all Jews were born under law they were under obligation to uphold God's laws. They had no choice in that. Being Jewish obligated them to be obedient to all of God's laws under penalty. But, becoming a Christian was something that had to be done by choice. Even though Jesus was the son of God, he was still a free moral agent, so he too had to choose to enter the assignment that he was sent to perform. If he wasn't a free agent, then the devil's temptations would have been meaningless. Every temptation was an appeal to self interest....something that the devil himself succumbed to in Eden. (Luke 4:1-13)

    Christ's baptism set the stage for all Christian baptism. Previous to this John the Baptist had been baptizing Jews as a symbol of their repentance over breaking God's laws...but those who underwent John's baptism had to be baptized again in order to become a disciple of Christ. Later, Gentiles also came to Christ and dedicated their lives to God as disciples of his son. All received the same baptism as part of that arrangement. It was a public display so that all would know that one was a Christian. It was a symbolic 'death, burial and resurrection' of the old self...dying to one's former course, (and religion) and being raised up to put God's will first in your life. (1 Peter 2:21)

    Infant baptism is meaningless because it takes the act as being significant rather than the intent. No one can make a decision to serve God as a baby. It requites vows and educated decisions to fully accept the Christian way of life for yourself. Infant baptism is a proxy arrangement that finds no support whatsoever in the Bible. One has to be of an age where they can make that choice for themselves. There is no age limit but the one undergoing baptism must fully understand what it means.
     
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  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Not sure why you would care.
     
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  4. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    Intellectual curiosity?
     
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  5. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    And I can't bring myself to care whether or not you're sure. :D

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  6. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you on a few points.

    As you said, baptism with an atonement for sins. But the Jews did have an atonement ceremony. It was blood offering. A cloth was washed in the blood of a lamb and came out white. This is one of the miracles that the Talmud mentions having failed after Jesus (there were other ones that happened because of this, like the Temple doors swinging open every night and the lot always coming up as Azazel or "scapegoat").
    Talmudic Evidence for the Messiah at 30 C.E.
    Why? Because there was no longer any need for it. John baptised with water, but Jesus cleaned himself even if there was no need. That was precisely the point.

    There is a need for infant baptism. I mean, you can accept baptism as part of your commitment too, but the reason for infant baptism is that you have done nothing at all to deserve it.

    Unmerited. You didn't earn it. You get a free pass from being born into a family of devout Christians.
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Some days I just need a good bath.
     
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  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    To each his own :shrug:

    [​IMG]

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  9. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    I could never figure it out myself when I was a Christian. It was just another vague vapid ritual that nobody really knew what it was all about or what it meant.

    I mean what's the point of Jesus getting baptized by John the Baptist?

    Jesus hadn't 'died' yet and it all comes across as a pretty meaningless thing when you put the narratives into perspective.

    Some people argue it as a requirement for salvation while others do not see it as a requirement for salvation.

    Eventually I put it all down as nonsense.
     
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Exactly where I'm coming from.

    From my brief research before creating this thread, more than anything else it appears to be a ritual for ritual's sake.

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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That is of course your prerogative....:)

    I disagree with your point of disagreement. :D At what point was there no need for atonement?

    Talmudic "miracles" have little to do with a Christian's decision to be baptized "in the name of Father Son and holy spirit". (Matthew 28:19-20) Unless I have these "Talmudic miracles" recorded in scripture.....they are just the words of men.......men that Jesus rejected outright as shepherds of God's people.

    Since Jesus blood was shed in 33CE the law was still in force until Christ offered his blood of atonement.

    I'm sorry but where will I find "infant baptism" in the Christian scriptures?
    To baptize an infant is to put meaning into the act rather than the reason for the act. No one can commit another to Christ. Only the individual can do that. They must be of an age to make that decision for themselves.

    Just because God's "grace" is undeserved, does not mean that we don't need to qualify for it by our own actions.

    James 2:18-26..."....someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.....do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?......You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone......Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

    Infant baptism is useless.

    It is true that very young children before they reach an age of reason are counted according to their parent's standing with God, as Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 7:14....even if only one parent is a Christian....

    "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would be unclean, but now they are holy."

    This being the case, infant baptism is unnecessary. This also works in reverse as demonstrated with the flood of Noah's day. The children died with their wicked parents. Why? Because salvation was granted to Noah because of what he "did" in obedience to the commands of his God, rather than what he merely believed.
     
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  12. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    I was baptized when a young teenager
    had been going to catholic school several years prior

    not the usual scheme of things
    not only a late comer but also anointed with oil
    rather than a dunk in the water

    I don't see much point in dunking babies
    it's stems from the notion the deed must be done to enter heaven
    and the soul of the child is at risk if the parents have not seen to it

    I don't believe that

    I don't believe in ritual and ceremony
    especially when treated like a superstition

    but leaning to belief and THEN acting upon it displays intention

    now that I am much older......
    I look back and consider
    and again ....the need for the ritual has faded

    baptism is of mind and spirit
    not water

    it is of fire
     
  13. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    There are at least 3 types of views:
    and I'm trying to describe each as fairly as I can

    Both of the first two views are by people who believe you are 'saved by grace through faith'
    as Ephesians 2:8,9 says Faith is the root works are the fruit in these views (typically Protestant)

    1) A covenant dedication in hopes a child will become a believer under the protection fo the church
    Presbyterian is an example
    People who tend to lean toward a infant baptism dedication tend to emphasize the covenant through the believing parents to the child who might someday believe and be saved. The Bible says a child of believing parents is holy in some sense and they take baptism as an extension of circumcision and people who may become saved with the church being committed to help the child grow in the faith in hopes the child might become a Christian Instead of baptizing older believers they may have a confirmation instead.

    2) Public recognition of saving faith. Taking a public stand. An outward profession of an inward reality.
    Batist is an example
    People who tend to lean toward an adult baptism emphasize the faith of the individual being baptized They might take circumcision as done by God without hands by faith They emphasize that baptism is for the category of people who are believing saved. Most also may dedicate babies to God but don't baptize them. Baptism is like a confirmation here.

    (I think both 1 and 2 have something like a dedication and something like a confirmation)


    3) infant regeneration
    Catholic is an example
    Another category is people who feel the infant being baptized is regenerated and becomes a christian with the sacrament, that is a Roman Catholic view A person is not merely dedicated in hopes of becoming a Christian but a person becomes a Christian and received the Holy Spirit
    not merely a dedication in hopes they might become a Christian

    The 3rd view is often more in the direction of a works oriented salvation Where faith plus works leads to justification and sacraments are a bit more mechanical and automatic.

    Various individuals in these groups might look at their baptism differently but these are the main ways as I understand them ( but since I am a reformed baptist would lean a little harder toward the second view than the first and away from the 3rd )
     
    #13 whirlingmerc, Apr 3, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  14. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Purpose of baptism [spoiler alert!]
    noahflood.jpg

    1 Peter 3:20-22 New International Version (NIV)
    to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

    Meaningful difference of infant and adult baptism:

    Mark 16:16 New International Version (NIV)
    Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    An infant should not be baptized because the infant is incapable of believing.
    This is the wrong practice.



    Finally, what makes baptism meaningful is it should be done in the church established by Christ and not established by some fart.

     
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  15. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    Only those who believe in the one who makes Baptism real can benefit from it.
     
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  16. Shadow Link

    Shadow Link Active Member

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    1. What is the purpose of a wedding ceremony?

    2. What would be the difference between a dedication ceremony vs a wedding ceremony?
     
  17. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    It seems to me infant baptism is a magical act that transforms a baby into a creature acceptable to God.
    Adult baptism is a ceremony celebrating an oath or contract.
     
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  18. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    So they're quite different. And, I assume then that any baby not baptized is not acceptable to god, and if it dies it will end up in hell(?).


    So, because an infant and young child are incapable of believing, then they're condemned (to hell I imagine).

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  19. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    A baby or adult baptized in the Mother of Harlots and her harlot daughters would be condemned to eternal punishment on the Day of Judgement.

    No one is suffering in the Fiery Hell for the moment but a lot of people are buried in Hell [the Grave]
    So don't feel sad for the babies and fetuses.

    Matthew 18:1-5 New International Version (NIV)
    At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

    He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

    [​IMG]

    Matthew 19:13-15 New International Version (NIV)

    Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.

    Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find an infant can't make a dedication to God which precedes getting baptised.
    The ' free pass ', so to speak, is that a baptised believing parent covers a ' minor ' child as per 1 Corinthians 7:14.
     
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