What is the Message of the Book of Job?

[Kemosloby]

I also agree that the Law was already with our patriarchal fathers before it was officially given to Moses in the Mount Sinai. Now, if what you mean by "The Devil tested Jesus on the Law" is according to the literal Devil of Christianity, it didn't exist. Devil is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man.

I suspect it means both, the devil is in man, and there may also be a Devil. Jesus said " I know what is in a man" , which was one of his points to Nicodemus. The priests of Israel needed to make sacrifices for themselves, to make themselves clean, before making sacrifices for others, to make them clean. But Jesus having passed the test made himself clean forever.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I suspect it means both, the devil is in man, and there may also be a Devil. Jesus said " I know what is in a man" , which was one of his points to Nicodemus. The priests of Israel needed to make sacrifices for themselves, to make themselves clean, before making sacrifices for others, to make them clean. But Jesus having passed the test made himself clean forever.

There is nothing forever about man. (Genesis 3:22) Only HaShem is forever. Evidence in the case of Jesus is that he died and today he is in the eternal home of Sheol aka the grave. That's the only thing eternal about man. (Psalm 49:12,20)

 

[Kemosloby]

There is nothing forever about man. (Genesis 3:22) Only HaShem is forever. Evidence in the case of Jesus is that he died and today he is in the eternal home of Sheol aka the grave. That's the only thing eternal about man. (Psalm 49:12,20)

It goes on to say, that is the fate of the foolish. The grave is the eternal home of the foolish, but the wise will have eternal life.

Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead; he will surely take me to himself.

 

[Ben Avraham]

It goes on to say, that is the fate of the foolish. The grave is the eternal home of the foolish, but the wise will have eternal life.

Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem me from the realm of the dead; he will surely take me to himself.

"...yet, he must join the company of his ancestors who will never see daylight again." (Psalm 49:20) What you have quoted above is explained in verse 16 in the JPS thus: "The Lord will redeem my life from the clutches of Sheol." That's redemption of life from falling into death in battle, not from the grave. The Truth must be proved by evidences and, there has never been an evidence that one has returned from the grave; from eminent death, yes, but not from the grave.

Yes, it goes on to say that one does not have to be a fool to lay in the grave forever in the afterlife. Wisemen of all sort, Jews or non-Jews will have the grave as their home forever. According to Genesis 3:22,23, the reason why HaShem banished Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. What you are asking me is to agree with the contradiction in the Torah that eternal grave is only for the fool while eternal life is for the wise. No one can prove that but, eternal home in the grave after death is prove by Logic and commonsense.

 

[Kemosloby]

"...yet, he must join the company of his ancestors who will never see daylight again." (Psalm 49:20) What you have quoted above is explained in verse 16 in the JPS thus: "The Lord will redeem my life from the clutches of Sheol." That's redemption of life from falling into death in battle, not from the grave. The Truth must be proved by evidences and, there has never been an evidence that one has returned from the grave; from eminent death, yes, but not from the grave.

Yes, it goes on to say that one does not have to be a fool to lay in the grave forever in the afterlife. Wisemen of all sort, Jews or non-Jews will have the grave as their home forever. According to Genesis 3:22,23, the reason why HaShem banished Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. What you are asking me is to agree with the contradiction in the Torah that eternal grave is only for the fool while eternal life is for the wise. No one can prove that but, eternal home in the grave after death is prove by Logic and commonsense.

Nicodemus has taught you well, Obi Ben Avraham.

 

[midopafo]

Correct my ignorance here if I am wrong, but wasn't Satan cast out with the rebellious ones a long time before Job ? If so how is it that that conversation even took place ?

Looks like this thread meant for serious discussion has been hijacked by the LOL ridiculous crowd.

 

[Kemosloby]

Correct my ignorance here if I am wrong, but wasn't Satan cast out with the rebellious ones a long time before Job ? If so how is it that that conversation even took place ?

Looks like this thread meant for serious discussion has been hijacked by the LOL ridiculous crowd.

Satan was cast out of Heaven to Earth.

 

[midopafo]

Ok Kem, so when, when it says away back, or for the first time in the Apoc. ?

 

[Kemosloby]

Ok Kem, so when, when it says away back, or for the first time in the Apoc. ?

Not sure, it's hard to pin down. Some places it's talking about the angels but not specifically saying Satan. Away back seems to be saying some Angels were killed in the flood, cast into the grave, for sinning, those would be the ones referred to as "Sons of God" in Genesis.

 

[midopafo]

Not sure, it's hard to pin down. Some places it's talking about the angels but not specifically saying Satan. Away back seems to be saying some Angels were killed in the flood, cast into the grave, for sinning, those would be the ones referred to as "Sons of God" in Genesis.

Well if you are ok with Satan being thrown from Heaven twice in human history as we know it. Then that is ok with me that you think it.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Nicodemus has taught you well, Obi Ben Avraham.

As you can see, Jesus and Nicodemus were colleagues. Since the apple does not fall too far from the tree, Jesus was of the same kind with Nicodemus. (John 3:1-3)

 

[Kemosloby]

As you can see, Jesus and Nicodemus were colleagues. Since the apple does not fall too far from the tree, Jesus was of the same kind with Nicodemus. (John 3:1-3)

No, no, Jesus would have taught you different. Before and after he was redeemed from the grave.

 

[Ben Avraham]

No, no, Jesus would have taught you different. Before and after he was redeemed from the grave.

Really! Jesus taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Do you think that's any differently from the way the Pharisees taught in the Yeshivas? I didn't think so!

 

[Kemosloby]

Really! Jesus taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Do you think that's any differently from the way the Pharisees taught in the Yeshivas? I didn't think so!

No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets,they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

It seems like the Pharisees were the ones who wouldn't listen to the guy who rose from the dead in this scenario. So perhaps it's either, listen to Moses and the Prophets or listen to Jesus. Since the message is basically the same, but some won't do either.

 

[Ben Avraham]

No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’ Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets,they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

It seems like the Pharisees were the ones who wouldn't listen to the guy who rose from the dead in this scenario. So perhaps it's either, listen to Moses and the Prophets or listen to Jesus. Since the message is basically the same, but some won't do either.

That's right! "Listen to Moses and the Prophets or listen to Jesus." And what did Jesus say then? "Listen to 'Moses' aka the Law. And how this message is basically the same? Because Jesus himself listened to "Moses". Otherwise, he would not warn us to do the same.

 

[Kemosloby]

That's right! "Listen to Moses and the Prophets or listen to Jesus." And what did Jesus say then? "Listen to 'Moses' aka the Law. And how this message is basically the same? Because Jesus himself listened to "Moses". Otherwise, he would not warn us to do the same.

Depending on how you understand Moses and the Prophets. "When used correctly the law is good" . Part of Moses and the Prophets is telling of the coming of the Messiah. Some Jewish sage long ago said while standing on one foot, the law can be summed up as, love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus also summed it up the same but added, love your enemies too. And the book of Job, seems to have moments which reflect the Messiah on the cross.

 

[whirlingmerc]

How do you interpret Job?

Not all suffering is a judgement of personal sin, there can be things going on beyond what one might understand at the time

But God painted a picture beyond Job himself
In the start of the book Job is God's servant'
in the end of the book job is 'God's servant' mentioned multiple times
Job is God's suffering servant
and in the deepest darkest time of Job's suffering, he made sacrifice for sinners
and then God raised him up

Job points to Jesus, God's suffering servant. who was rejected, suffered for sin, died and was raised

 

[Ben Avraham]

Depending on how you understand Moses and the Prophets. "When used correctly the law is good" . Part of Moses and the Prophets is telling of the coming of the Messiah. Some Jewish sage long ago said while standing on one foot, the law can be summed up as, love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus also summed it up the same but added, love your enemies too. And the book of Job, seems to have moments which reflect the Messiah on the cross.

Indeed, "Part of Moses and the Prophets is telling of the coming of the Messiah." Coming from where? From exile. About 75% of their prophetic activity, the Prophets' first preoccupation was about the return of the Messiah. In fact the concept of a coming Messiah is about the remnant of the Jews in the Land of Israel praying for the return of the main body of the People who got exiled. That's called the collective concept of the Messiah.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Ben, I agree only in part. God uses historical things for an immediate and also a future fulfiyllment

The most quoted prophets in the New testament are
1) Isaiah
2) Zechariah <-- only post exile one
3) Jeremiah
4) Hosea

For example in the end of the 3rd book of Psalms Psalm 88 and 89 immediately might refer to the exile but in a future sense the end of the 3rd book of Psalms (the priestly Psalms are book 2 and book 3 ) the Messiah dies and is raised as an ultimate sacrifice

Here in Job, Jesus is the suffering servant who offers sacrifice in the deepest darkest part of his suffering and then is raised up

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ben, I agree only in part. God uses historical things for an immediate and also a future fulfiyllment

The most quoted prophets in the New testament are
1) Isaiah
2) Zechariah <-- only post exile one
3) Jeremiah
4) Hosea

For example in the end of the 3rd book of Psalms Psalm 88 and 89 immediately might refer to the exile but in a future sense the end of the 3rd book of Psalms (the priestly Psalms are book 2 and book 3 ) the Messiah dies and is raised as an ultimate sacrifice

Here in Job, Jesus is the suffering servant who offers sacrifice in the deepest darkest part of his suffering and then is raised up

According to whom, to you! You have got to do a little better than that. Logic dictates that the Messiah is not supposed to die. Think!