What is the Jewish Understanding of Exodus 6:3, YHWH, G-d, and Hashem?

[Ehav4Ever]

So, are you saying that the Tetragrammaton or the four letters that represent what most people view as YHWH is actually in the Hebrew text?

Yes, of course it is. See below on various parts of the Torah. What you were asking about before is a specific place in the Torah where the Hebrew term (השם) "hashem" is in the Torah.

Here is a Jewish Torah scroll from Yemen. I have put red boxes around the name of Hashem Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey.

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The following is from a Samaritan Torah scroll I have put green boxes around the name of Hashem Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey there.

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The following is a Dead Sea Scroll. I have put yellow boxes around the name of Hashem Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey there.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Although, it seems like what people generally do is take sides... or choose the sacred text interpretation which makes the most sense to them.

Torath Mosheh don't really get involvd in "taking sides." We, Torath Mosheh Jews, are not in a religious battle for supremacy. In fact, the Torah does not advocate what is called in the west "religion." Which is why most debates between religions and also between Athiests and Theists is not really something we are involved in. Besides, most debates between Athiests and Theists are really Athiests vs. Christians.

The basic "singularity" of Torath Mosheh is the claim that our (Israelis/Jews) ancestors received a mass revelation at a placed called Mount Sinai where the Source of reality/creation gave our people (Israelis/Jews) the Torah with which to build a Torah based society. This does not give Torath Mosheh Jews ownership of the Source of reality and not over reality itself. Thus, we are not here to argue with the world about what their claims are about reality.

However, one has to wonder: Where exactly does all that stuff come from? What is the source of it all? Is it just human thought and human imagination?

One approach is go through each claim and determine "historically" how it started (it's "singularity") and if it meets your standard for how you determine if something is true or false. Again, you have to have your own method of determining if something makes logical sense historically.

Therefore, I can see how atheists can come to their conclusion where in spite of all the religious talk and reasoning and sacred texts and doctrines and interpretations and holiness and spiritual experiences, etc., that something isn't quite right about all this.

Torath Mosheh Jews actually have a lot in common with athiests on that level. At least Torath Mosheh Jews like myself do.

Additionally, from what I have been learning from my discussions with you is that the Torath Mosheh Jewish faith is very, very complex and complicated,

It is better not to call it a "faith." It is actually anti-faith. I.e. all things are up for debate, discussion, and to be proven and disproven.

and it seems like a person has to be raised in that faith in order to really learn it all (or what's needed to be known) and understand it.

I know of people who were not raised in a Torath Mosheh environment and who are happily are part of one now. The key is that being a Torath Mosheh Jew is a community/national thing. It is not a "religion" where an individual stands up say they beleive in something and then go on their personal way. When a person is saying they want to be a Jew, a Torath Mosheh one, they are saying that commiting themselves to the Torah from that point until their last breath. Learning, challenging, relearning, and teaching is a daily sometimes hourly, moment to moment thing in this culture. Similar to how one can join the military and have a good career but joining special forces is a really intense commitment that puts said person in a very small crowd and also carries with it some benefits not found in other parts of the military. It is all the same military but a different division of it.

Plus, it seems as if Hashem is only interested in people of Jewish lineage and who abide by the Torah, and it's just kind of tough luck for the rest of those misguided souls.

According to Torath Mosheh, the non-Jewish world does not have any requirement to become Jewish in order to have a connection with Hashem. It is considered that there are 7 mitzvoth (commands/Noachide laws) for the non-Jewish nations to keep, where we Torath Mosheh Jews (as a nation) have 613 mitzvoth/commands.

From one perspective, Hashem has given all human beings to come close to him or to reject him. I.e. free will. Further, all human beings have a reward for any form of good they do. Some people get it all in this world, some people get half and half, and some people get it all in the world to come. Like you said before, some of these ideas can be considered complex but at its base if you, as someone who is not Jewish, keep the 7 mitzvoth you are doing the will of Hashem for you.

 

[David Davidovich]

I have another question that you might not be able to answer, but I'll ask it anyway. Also, I think that it's a very Jewish question, however, it's in a Christian context.

But do you have any idea why the Jewish turned Christian, the Apostle John, would include an abbreviated form of the Tetragrammaton (Hallelujah) in the Christian Bible? Because I thought that you had said that Jews really didn't use the Tetragrammaton.

The origins of ''hallelujah'' begin in the Hebrew Bible, but the word has been used in a variety of ways since that time as well:

• Psalm 150:1 – ''Praise the LORD! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament!'' (NRSV).
• Tobit 13:17 – ''The gates of Jerusalem will sing hymns of joy, and all her houses will cry, 'Hallelujah! Blessed be the God of Israel!' and the blessed will bless the holy name forever and ever'' (NRSV).
• Revelation 19:1 – ''After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, 'Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power to our God'' (NRSV).
  • In the King James Version (KJV), ''Hallelujah'' is transliterated as ''Alleluia'' in this verse.
• We won the game! Hallelujah!

click here: Hallelujah Word Origin | Alleluia vs Hallelujah | Study.com

 

[Ehav4Ever]

But do you have any idea why the Jewish turned Christian, the Apostle John, would include an abbreviated form of the Tetragrammaton (Hallelujah) in the Christian Bible?

The first challenge here is that there is no evidence that the author of the "gospel" called John was a Jew, let alone content provided by someone who was a direct student of jesus. See the below.

Because I thought that you had said that Jews really didn't use the Tetragrammaton.

(הללויה) is not the same as (יהוה). Jews have never taken on not pronunciating (הללויה). Since many of our prayers are based on the Tehillim (what you call Psalms) it shows up quite often and we pronounce it as the Herbew vowels point it. Listen to the below examples.

This video is in English and has a lot of good information. You will want to listen at 8:37 to 10:54.

In the below video you will hear it starting at about 0:36 in the video and throughout.

In the below video you will hear it at 8:48 to 10:38.

As to your question as to why the non-Jewish Christian author of John used it. Most likely because he was told by someone to use and because for Jews there is no reason to say or write within the proper contexts.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What is the Jewish understanding of Exodus 6:3,



the Tetragrammaton (i.e. YHWH), the Jewish spelling of G-d, and the word Hasem?

Also, Exodus 6:3 doesn't make sense to me considering that Eve uses the Tetragrammaton when refering to God at Genesis 4:1(link):



And then there's Genesis 13:4 and Genesis 14:22. Also, why do Jews spell God as G-d and use the word Hashem?

YHWH does not mean God. It is God's personal name. Abraham did not use the name YHWH. He used El Shaddai, or God almighty.

 

[David Davidovich]

YHWH does not mean God. It is God's personal name. Abraham did not use the name YHWH. He used El Shaddai, or God almighty.

So, is that based upon Jewish oral tradition?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So, is that based upon Jewish oral tradition?

As far as I know, Christians say the same thing. It is based on Exodus 6:3 "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob (Israel) as God Almighty [El Shaddai], but by My name, LORD [YHVH], I did not make Myself known to them."

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, is that based upon Jewish oral tradition?

It is one view found among ancient Jewish commentaries. It goes back to the fact that the written Torah is Hashem's commentary on the events rather it being a record from the people mentioned in the text. I.e. Avraham didn't write Beresheeth, parts of it were written about him.

There is a verb (circled in green below) used in the Hebrew text that allows for it to be that it was known and not fully understood or that it was not known but as a part of Hashem's commentary of the events it was relevent.

Please note: In ancient Hebrew the word (שם) often translated as "name" doesn't mean what name means in English. (שם) in ancient Hebrew is used to describe character traits or what someone receives from the person/experience.

 

[David Davidovich]

I edited this post, so forget what was said in it.

 

[David Davidovich]

It is one view found among ancient Jewish commentaries. It goes back to the fact that the written Torah is Hashem's commentary on the events rather it being a record from the people mentioned in the text. I.e. Avraham didn't write Beresheeth, parts of it were written about him.

There is a verb (circled in green below) used in the Hebrew text that allows for it to be that it was known and not fully understood or that it was not known but as a part of Hashem's commentary of the events it was relevent.

View attachment 64574

So, what exactly is that verb or what is the verb saying?

Please note: In ancient Hebrew the word (שם) often translated as "name" doesn't mean what name means in English. (שם) in ancient Hebrew is used to describe character traits or what someone receives from the person/experience.

Well, actually, Christians believe that same thing, well, some of the times, such as at Matthew 28:19, unless you are a trinitarian. But this next question may be too speculative: But would you have any guess or knowledge of as to why some groups or Christians group go gung ho over the Tetragrammaton? Because I would think that they would have some knowledge about what's in the Jewish commentaries... unless those are sealed writings to the rest of the world.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, what exactly is that verb or what is the verb saying?

But would you have any guess or knowledge of as to why some groups or Christians group go gung ho over the Tetragrammaton?

Probably because the Hebrew letters have become a type of idolatry to them. Some of them may be seeking ways to show off how much smarter they are when compared to other types of Christians.

Because I would think that they would have some knowledge about what's in the Jewish commentaries... unless those are sealed writings to the rest of the world.

Let's just put it like this. I have come across some Christians who go gung ho into trying to learning Jewish things that they think are secret, that in reality not secrets to Jews. Thus, because as Christians they were never taught these things they get all gung ho that they know something that the average Christian may not know then they start to think that just because some Jews who don't know Hebrew don't know the that they [said Christian] is way more knowledgable than everyone. Some of these types I have seen actually meet some Torath Mosheh Jews, see that they don't really know of understand what they thought they did, and some of them became Noachides while some coverted to Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Judaism.

 

[metis]

Exodus 3:15….(BibleHub)

New Living Translation
“God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you. This is my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
“God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.”

American Standard Version
“And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

His Name should set Him apart from all other gods. It’s in the ancient Hebrew text over 6,820 times.

He is “to be remembered” that way, right?
But what have most translators done? Replaced it with “LORD”

Shame on them.

IMO

"Yahweh" and "Jehovah" are translations that cannot be verified as being accurate, plus there's no "J" sound in Hebrew as it would be pronounced as a "Y".

 

[David Davidovich]

View attachment 64602

So, what exactly was known about Hashem's characteristics by the Israelites who came out of Egypt? Also, from what I understand, the Tetragrammaton is supposed to represent the idea of he who causes to become or something like that.

Probably because the Hebrew letters have become a type of idolatry to them. Some of them may be seeking ways to show off how much smarter they are when compared to other types of Christians.

That's interesting.

Let's just put it like this. I have come across some Christians who go gung ho into trying to learning Jewish things that they think are secret, that in reality not secrets to Jews. Thus, because as Christians they were never taught these things they get all gung ho that they know something that the average Christian may not know then they start to think that just because some Jews who don't know Hebrew don't know the that they [said Christian] is way more knowledgable than everyone. Some of these types I have seen actually meet some Torath Mosheh Jews, see that they don't really know of understand what they thought they did, and some of them became Noachides while some coverted to Torath Mosheh/Orthodox Judaism.

That's really deep. Because I myself had never known that much about the Bible until I studied with Jehovah's Witnesses, and from there, I was given the impression that the Jehovah's Witnesses were the continuation of God's people who were written about in both the Christian Greek Bible and the Hebrew text (called Old Testament by Christians) and that only they had true insight and understanding of the Christian Greek Bible and the Hebrew text.

Also, something else that I don't understand about them is that they claim that their magazines and literature covers all types of topics, plus, they use all types of Biblical scholarly information and archaeological information to support their views, doctrines, and Bible translations, however, as far as I know, they have never referred to what Jewish commentaries such as the Talmud and Midrash say about the Hebrew text and have never conveyed the idea that the Jewish commentaries go all the way back to when the actual Hebrew text was written. But perhaps they don't know anything about that?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, what exactly was known about Hashem's characteristics by the Israelites who came out of Egypt?

Essentially, everything that Avraham, Yitzhaq, and Ya'aqov knew. What changed, as compared to what was known prior to leaving Egypt was:

1. Hashem brought them out of Egypt and made them a nation.
2. Hashem giving the Ten Commands as a mass revalation at Mount Sinai in front of the entire nation, rather than a personal revelation like what Avraham, Yitzhaq, and Ya'aqov experienced.
3. The 613 mitzvoth of the Torah being given as the foundation of said nation.
4. The eventual establishment of said nation in the land of Israel.

Also, from what I understand, the Tetragrammaton is supposed to represent the idea of he who causes to become or something like that.

There are Torath Mosheh sources that claim that Yod-Hey-Waw-Hey is not based on any form of Hebrew or linquistic grammer thus one can't derive a meaning from grammer. The basic understanding is that it is what Hashem gave as Israel's way of experiencing the side of mercy from the Source of creation as well as an element of distinction between Hashem and things that are created or are the result of things that are created.

however, as far as I know, they have never referred to what Jewish commentaries such as the Talmud and Midrash say about the Hebrew text and have never conveyed the idea that the Jewish commentaries go all the way back to when the actual Hebrew text was written. But perhaps they don't know anything about that?

I can't really speak to what their thinking is. Some of the ones I have run into seem to be holding something back when I have conversed with them.

The following thread has a long discussion with someone who is a JW. It may give some insight.

"A" Torath Mosheh View of Human Suffering and Responsibility

 

[David Davidovich]

"Yahweh" and "Jehovah" are translations that cannot be verified as being accurate, plus there's no "J" sound in Hebrew as it would be pronounced as a "Y".

But what about the way that it is translated in different languages? Because a lot of languages don't have a "Y" or even a "J," therefore, they have to translate the Tetragrammaton in an entirely different way.
Like in Arabic it's يهوه
in Greek Ιεχωβά
in Hindi यहोवा
in Italian Geova
in Japanese エホバ
and in Welsh Đức Giê-hô-va.

click here: Translation of jehovah (definitions.net)
click here: Jehovah in different languages

 

[David Davidovich]

"Yahweh" and "Jehovah" are translations that cannot be verified as being accurate, plus there's no "J" sound in Hebrew as it would be pronounced as a "Y".

Also, that brings up the question of how it should be translated or pronounced in other languages? Should they stick with the Hebrew letters and the way it's pronounced in Hebrew (whatever that is)?

The oldest historical mention of ancient Israel occurs in the Merneptah stele, an Egyptian monument dated to 1208 B.C. But mention of Israel’s God, Yahweh, occurs even earlier in Egyptian inscriptions in conjunction with a group of people called the Shasu.

Among ancient Egyptian designations for types of foreign peoples in the New Kingdom Period (1550–1070 BC), the term Shasu occurs fairly frequently. It is generally accepted that the term Shasu means nomads or Bedouin people, referring primarily to the nomadic peoples of Syria-Palestine. There are two hieroglyphic references in New Kingdom Period texts to an area called “the land of the Shasu of Yahweh.” Except for the Old Testament, these are the oldest references found in any ancient texts to the God Yahweh.

click here: The Name Yahweh in Egyptian Hieroglyphic Texts – The Book Blog
click here: Exodus: The Name Yahweh in Egyptian Hieroglyphic Texts - Associates for Biblical Research (biblearchaeology.org)

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑
however, as far as I know, they have never referred to what Jewish commentaries such as the Talmud and Midrash say about the Hebrew text and have never conveyed the idea that the Jewish commentaries go all the way back to when the actual Hebrew text was written. But perhaps they don't know anything about that?

I can't really speak to what their thinking is. Some of the ones I have run into seem to be holding something back when I have conversed with them.

The following thread has a long discussion with someone who is a JW. It may give some insight.

"A" Torath Mosheh View of Human Suffering and Responsibility

Well, I found something from the Jehovah's Witnesses organization, which seems rather dramatic to me and brings up memories about this topic. Even the title of the article is dramatic.

The Third Commandment

Evidently, during the first and second centuries C.E., a superstition regarding the use of God’s name took hold among the Jews. The Mishnah (a collection of rabbinic commentaries that became the foundation of the Talmud) states that “one who pronounces the divine name as it is spelt” has no portion in the future earthly Paradise promised by God.

What was the origin of such a prohibition? Some claim that the Jews considered the name of God too sacred for imperfect humans to pronounce. Eventually, there was a hesitancy even to write the name. According to one source, that fear arose because of a concern that the document in which the name was written might later end up in the trash, resulting in a desecration of the divine name.

The Encyclopaedia Judaica says that “the avoidance of pronouncing the name YHWH . . . was caused by a misunderstanding of the Third Commandment.” The third of the Ten Commandments given by God to the Israelites states: “You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.” (Exodus 20:7) Hence, God’s decree against the improper use of his name was twisted into a superstition.

click here: The Fight Against God’s Name — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

Well, it looks like the Jehovah's Witnesses organization does know what's in the Talmud and the Mishnah. Also, the article goes on to explain how there's a conspiracy by just about everyone else to suppress the Tetragrammaton in the Christian Bible and the Hebrew text. Therefore, are there any comments from anyone who is Jewish about the Jewish claims that are made in this article?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, it looks like the Jehovah's Witnesses organization does know what's in the Talmud and the Mishnah.

Actually pulling out the text and reading it from its original langauges and proving that one has a proper understanding of what the content is talking about is how one proves they know what is in a text. Anyone can pick up an encyclopedia and claim they know something 2nd to 3rd hand. Please be aware the Jewish Encyclopedia is not considered, among Jews, as a final source of information. It has heavy biases in a particular direction that is not Torath Mosheh historically based.

I am certain that there are a handful fo JW's who took the time and energy to learn Talmudic Hebrew/Aramaic and read a few snippets here and there. Yet, that handful is nothing compared to the millions of Jews who have done and not just snippets but the entire text, over and over and over again.

 

[metis]

But what about the way that it is translated in different languages? Because a lot of languages don't have a "Y" or even a "J," therefore, they have to translate the Tetragrammaton in an entirely different way.
Like in Arabic it's يهوه
in Greek Ιεχωβά
in Hindi यहोवा
in Italian Geova
in Japanese エホバ
and in Welsh Đức Giê-hô-va.

click here: Translation of jehovah (definitions.net)
click here: Jehovah in different languages

Yes, I agree, but that wasn't my point as I generally don't have a problem with translations.

 

[metis]

Also, that brings up the question of how it should be translated or pronounced in other languages? Should they stick with the Hebrew letters and the way it's pronounced in Hebrew (whatever that is)?

IMO, not really, as the main purpose of language is to communicate, thus if I post "YHWH" instead of "God", some English speakers may not understand whom I'm referring to.