What is the Jewish Understanding of Exodus 6:3, YHWH, G-d, and Hashem?

[David Davidovich]

What is the Jewish understanding of Exodus 6:3,

3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob with [the name] Almighty God, but [with] My name YHWH, I did not become known to them.

the Tetragrammaton (i.e. YHWH), the Jewish spelling of G-d, and the word Hasem?

Also, Exodus 6:3 doesn't make sense to me considering that Eve uses the Tetragrammaton when refering to God at Genesis 4:1(link):

4 And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, `I have gotten a man by Jehovah;'

And then there's Genesis 13:4 and Genesis 14:22. Also, why do Jews spell God as G-d and use the word Hashem?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What is the Jewish understanding of Exodus 6:3,

Short note, Hebrew is read and written from right to left.

the Tetragrammaton (i.e. YHWH), the Jewish spelling of G-d, and the word Hasem?

The Torath Mosheh Jewish understanding is the Hebrew word (שם) often translated as "name" in English doesn't mean a "pronunciation" but really means "the expression of a characteristic that someone else receives from the one who named as such." So, for example all of the Hebrew names in the Tanakh for the Source of creation are expressions of what humanity receives from the Source of creation. (אל שדי) "El Shaddai" carries an expression of what humans receive from Hashem while (אלהים) Elohim has a different one of humans receives, so and so on with each name/title. The one you are referencing for example carries the human experience of complete protection. One of the words associated with this (רחם) of Hashem is (רחם) which is the same word used for a womb and related to how a mother's womb protects a developing life.

Also, Exodus 6:3 doesn't make sense to me considering that Eve uses the Tetragrammaton when refering to God at Genesis 4:1(link):

Again, be aware that you are reading someone's translation w/o a) the actual language it was expressed in and b) w/o the Oral Torah which explains what the words, expressions, and idioms mean. Some of these can only be expressed in Hebrew, because the letters in the Hebrew language also have meanings behind them that can't really expressed in translation w/o HUGE amounts of commentary on every single letter, word, and sentence. Just on this line alone you are asking amount there are loads of information in Hebrew about it going back more than 3,000 years.

Further to this point. All of (בראשית) "Beresheeth" or as you may call it in English Genesis is a type of "cliff notes" type account given to Mosheh ben-Amram (who you call Moses) by Hashem for Mosheh ben-Amram to transcribe in the Written Torah. I.e. the account of (בראשית) "Beresheeth" or as you may call it in English Genesis was given from Hashem's perspective not the perspective of those written about in it.

Further, Mosheh ben-Amram was given an Oral Torah to explain how to properly understand what was supposed to be derived from the account/information that Hashem gave about (בראשית) "Beresheeth" or as you may call it in English Genesis. I.e. the Torath Mosheh Jewish perspective is that there are four elements to any reading of the Torah called PaRDeS and the text was constructed for Jews to get certain points out of the text in order to direct Torath Mosheh Jewish life and such.

And then there's Genesis 13:4 and Genesis 14:22.

Same as mentioned above. See my two explainations above.

Also, why do Jews spell God as G-d and use the word Hashem?

Only Jews who use the English language do this. One of the reasons is that it allows them [the Jews who write G-d] to denote that they have a different concept than the various religions who use the English word god. I.e. it is one small way for a Jew who may have to use the English language as medium to make it clear that as a Jew what they are about is distinct from what else is out there and uses that word.

Hashem (השם), is actually in the Hebrew text of the Torah. It is used as a way to not write out the Source of creation's title/name/etc. that deals with the particular aspect that I mentioned above. The reason's why we do that is also from the Hebrew text of the Written Torah and the Oral Torah.

 

[David Davidovich]

Short note, Hebrew is read and written from right to left.

View attachment 64244



The Torath Mosheh Jewish understanding is the Hebrew word (שם) often translated as "name" in English doesn't mean a "pronunciation" but really means "the expression of a characteristic that someone else receives from the one who named as such." So, for example all of the Hebrew names in the Tanakh for the Source of creation are expressions of what humanity receives from the Source of creation. (אל שדי) "El Shaddai" carries an expression of what humans receive from Hashem while (אלהים) Elohim has a different one of humans receives, so and so on with each name/title. The one you are referencing for example carries the human experience of complete protection. One of the words associated with this (רחם) of Hashem is (רחם) which is the same word used for a womb and related to how a mother's womb protects a developing life.

The explanation that you gave was kind of choppy to me and I didn't quite understand it. Also, I still don't understand the Jewish significance of YHWH. Nor do I understand why Jews stop using it.

David Davidovich said: ↑
Also, Exodus 6:3 doesn't make sense to me considering that Eve uses the Tetragrammaton when refering to God at Genesis 4:1(link):

Again, be aware that you are reading someone's translation w/o a) the actual language it was expressed in and b) w/o the Oral Torah which explains what the words, expressions, and idioms mean. Some of these can only be expressed in Hebrew, because the letters in the Hebrew language also have meanings behind them that can't really expressed in translation w/o HUGE amounts of commentary on every single letter, word, and sentence. Just on this line alone you are asking amount there are loads of information in Hebrew about it going back more than 3,000 years.

Further to this point. All of (בראשית) "Beresheeth" or as you may call it in English Genesis is a type of "cliff notes" type account given to Mosheh ben-Amram (who you call Moses) by Hashem for Mosheh ben-Amram to transcribe in the Written Torah. I.e. the account of (בראשית) "Beresheeth" or as you may call it in English Genesis was given from Hashem's perspective not the perspective of those written about in it.

So, how could it be Hashem's perspective that Eve referred to God as YHWH in Genesis 4:1?

Further, Mosheh ben-Amram was given an Oral Torah to explain how to properly understand what was supposed to be derived from the account/information that Hashem gave about (בראשית) "Beresheeth" or as you may call it in English Genesis. I.e. the Torath Mosheh Jewish perspective is that there are four elements to any reading of the Torah called PaRDeS and the text was constructed for Jews to get certain points out of the text in order to direct Torath Mosheh Jewish life and such.

So, it sounds like you are saying that what non-Jewish people see written in the Torah, isn't quite the literal meaning of what they're seeing. And that there are other meanings of what was written in the Torah which are not written in the Torah but were transmitted to Jews or to Mosheh ben-Amram by Hashem.

And by the way, you don't have to keep saying: "Beresheeth" or as you may call it in English Genesis. Because after the first time, I got it.

David Davidovich said: ↑
And then there's Genesis 13:4 and Genesis 14:22.

Same as mentioned above. See my two explainations above.

I still don't see how Abram calling on the name of YHWH or Abram referring to YHWH is only Hashem's persceptive and that Eve and Abram really weren't referring to YHWH. Also, I'm curious about something. Have Torath Mosheh Jews ever had discussions with either Jehovah's Witnesses or anyone else who believes that God is or should be referred to as Jehovah?

FWIW, God's name in the form "Jehovah" was in common use in early 1900's and before that. It can be found in places like King James bible (Psalm 83:18) and more frequently in the ASV (published 1901), besides places like older movies from the time such as "The Green Pastures" (1936) and some anti-Jewish propaganda from 1920s. Karaite Jews such as Nehemiah Gordon hold that "Jehovah" is actually the correct pronounciation (see e.g. this YouTube video starting at 45m34s, where he discusses 5 ancient manuscripts having God's name written with full vowels).
– coderworks
May 12, 2018 at 23:31

Another religious denomination who use the name Jehovah is The Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons). They believe that the first offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother was the spirit, Jehovah, who was born of the Virgin Mary as Jesus. Jehovah is the name by which he was known in heaven before he came to earth. The LORD in the Old Testament is understood to be the pre-mortal Jesus, Jehovah.

click here: Other than JWs, which denominations (or religions) recognize God's personal name as the form "Jehovah"? - Christianity Stack Exchange

Only Jews who use the English language do this. One of the reasons is that it allows them [the Jews who write G-d] to denote that they have a different concept than the various religions who use the English word god. I.e. it is one small way for a Jew who may have to use the English language as medium to make it clear that as a Jew what they are about is distinct from what else is out there and uses that word.

That kind of reminds me of how Jehovah's Witnesses are the only Christian sect who won't call their places of worship churches, but instead call them Kingdom Halls.

Hashem (השם), is actually in the Hebrew text of the Torah. It is used as a way to not write out the Source of creation's title/name/etc. that deals with the particular aspect that I mentioned above. The reason's why we do that is also from the Hebrew text of the Written Torah and the Oral Torah.

So, what verses of the Hebrew text of the Torah are you referring to?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The explanation that you gave was kind of choppy to me and I didn't quite understand it. Also, I still don't understand the Jewish significance of YHWH. Nor do I understand why Jews stop using it.

It is a long explaination. Not something your going to get clearly in writing. Essentially, until there is a Torah based kingdom it is things will. When there is a Temple then things can change but not before.

So, how could it be Hashem's perspective that Eve referred to God as YHWH in Genesis 4:1?

Because according to Torath Mosheh, Hashem dictated the words to include in the Written text of the Torah to Mosheh ben-Amram. Mosheh ben-Amram wrote down exactly what Hashem told him to write, exactly as Hashem told him to write it. The other half of the Torah, the Oral One, has additional details about what perspectives Jews can gain from the situation. According to Torath Mosheh both the written Torah and oral Torah come from Hashem, thus what is in the written text is Hashem's perspective given in order for Jews to get certain lessons out the information language and idiom that would recognizable to Jews based on both the language of the Torah and Jewish culture around it.

So, it sounds like you are saying that what non-Jewish people see written in the Torah, isn't quite the literal meaning of what they're seeing.

What I am saying is:

1. When someone doesn't know Hebrew, Jewish or not, they are not seeing what is actually in the Hebrew since both the letters, spelling choices, spacing, large vs. small letters, etc.
2. People who don't actually read from the oldest Torath Mosheh Hebrew texts they don't know what is actually in the tex.
3. People who don't know what the Oral Torah is and method of transmission used to pass it on through the generations they don't know what is in the text.
4. When someone who is not Jewish and doesn't use the Torath Mosheh method of learning the written Torah and the oral Torah they don't know what is really in the text.

And that there are other meanings of what was written in the Torah which are not written in the Torah but were transmitted to Jews or to Mosheh ben-Amram by Hashem.

Yes, the written Torah does not define words or grammer. There are also no vowels or punciation in the original text. All of that comes from the Oral Torah.

And by the way, you don't have to keep saying: "Beresheeth" or as you may call it in English Genesis. Because after the first time, I got it.

Sorry, there are some people who don't and ask why I keep calling it by its real name.

I still don't see how Abram calling on the name of YHWH or Abram referring to YHWH is only Hashem's persceptive and that Eve and Abram really weren't referring to YHWH.

Again, one of the challenges of not being able to read the text as it was originally written. I never said that Hawwah (what you call in English Eve) and Avram/Avraham (Who you wrote as Abram) weren't referring to Hashem I stated that they did not write the written Torah. Therefore the text was not written from their perspective - it was Hashem given by Hashem therefore it is Hashem's perspective.

Further, there is information about both of them that is only found in the oral Torah and not the written. Thus, what they said, what they meant by what they said, and what they understood about Hashem was transmitted orally in parts throughout Avraham's family yet when the written Torah came about it was from Hashem. I.e. provided the details of what they what they meant by what they said, and what they understood about Hashem and what Israel would understand going forward as well as what no human ever would while living.

Like I wrote earlier,

The Torath Mosheh Jewish understanding is the Hebrew word (שם) often translated as "name" in English doesn't mean a "pronunciation" but really means "the expression of a characteristic that someone else receives from the one who named as such." So, for example all of the Hebrew names in the Tanakh for the Source of creation are expressions of what humanity receives from the Source of creation. (אל שדי) "El Shaddai" carries an expression of what humans receive from Hashem while (אלהים) Elohim has a different one of humans receives, so and so on with each name/title. The one you are referencing for example carries the human experience of complete protection. One of the words associated with this (רחם) of Hashem is (רחם) which is the same word used for a womb and related to how a mother's womb protects a developing life.​

Also, I'm curious about something. Have Torath Mosheh Jews ever had discussions with either Jehovah's Witnesses or anyone else who believes that God is or should be referred to as Jehovah?

We don't don't dictate to the non-Jewish world what terms they use in life. There are some groups who use stuff that they made up themselves.

So, what verses of the Hebrew text of the Torah are you referring to?[/QUOTE]

In Hebrew it is called Wayiqra (Lev.) 24:11. It is highlighted below.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑
The explanation that you gave was kind of choppy to me and I didn't quite understand it. Also, I still don't understand the Jewish significance of YHWH. Nor do I understand why Jews stop using it.

It is a long explaination. Not something your going to get clearly in writing. Essentially, until there is a Torah based kingdom it is things will. When there is a Temple then things can change but not before.

So, is that something that's in the Jewish supplemental texts and oral information to the Torah and the Tanakh? Also, do you know the exact pronunciation of it since that seems to be a mystery to everyone else? And would it be a sin to even say it or use it before there is a Torah based kingdom and Temple?

David Davidovich said: ↑
So, how could it be Hashem's perspective that Eve referred to God as YHWH in Genesis 4:1?

Because according to Torath Mosheh, Hashem dictated the words to include in the Written text of the Torah to Mosheh ben-Amram. Mosheh ben-Amram wrote down exactly what Hashem told him to write, exactly as Hashem told him to write it. The other half of the Torah, the Oral One, has additional details about what perspectives Jews can gain from the situation. According to Torath Mosheh both the written Torah and oral Torah come from Hashem, thus what is in the written text is Hashem's perspective given in order for Jews to get certain lessons out the information language and idiom that would recognizable to Jews based on both the language of the Torah and Jewish culture around it.

So, why isn't it in your Hebrew text (or Old Testament as Christians call it)? Because the Hebrew texts that I've seen translated into English doesn't have it. For example:

1Now the man knew his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, and she said, "I have acquired a man with the Lord."

click here: Bere**** - Genesis - Chapter 4 (Parshah Bere****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible (chabad.org)

David Davidovich said: ↑
So, it sounds like you are saying that what non-Jewish people see written in the Torah, isn't quite the literal meaning of what they're seeing.

What I am saying is:

1. When someone doesn't know Hebrew, Jewish or not, they are not seeing what is actually in the Hebrew since both the letters, spelling choices, spacing, large vs. small letters, etc.
2. People who don't actually read from the oldest Torath Mosheh Hebrew texts they don't know what is actually in the tex.
3. People who don't know what the Oral Torah is and method of transmission used to pass it on through the generations they don't know what is in the text.
4. When someone who is not Jewish and doesn't use the Torath Mosheh method of learning the written Torah and the oral Torah they don't know what is really in the text.

1. So, does that translate to: People (including Christians) who don't know Hebrew don't really know what they're reading when they read the Hebrew text? (Or Old Testament as Christians call it.) And conversely, do people who are not Jewish, but who can read Hebrew, do they know what they're reading when they read the Hebrew text (Old Testament)?

David Davidovich said: ↑
Also, I'm curious about something. Have Torath Mosheh Jews ever had discussions with either Jehovah's Witnesses or anyone else who believes that God is or should be referred to as Jehovah?

We don't don't dictate to the non-Jewish world what terms they use in life. There are some groups who use stuff that they made up themselves.

I didn't say dictate, I said discuss. Just like we are having a discussion.

David Davidovich said: ↑
So, what verses of the Hebrew text of the Torah are you referring to? (Also, you kind of messed up that quote, so I will correct it. )

In Hebrew it is called Wayiqra (Lev.) 24:11. It is highlighted below.
View attachment 64330

Well, here is an English translation of that verse from a Jewish text:

11And the son of the Israelite woman pronounced the [Divine] Name and cursed. So they brought him to Moses. His mother's name was Shelomith the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan

click here: Vayikra - Leviticus - Chapter 24 (Parshah Emor) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible (chabad.org)

So, are you saying that the word "name" in that text is what is translated as Hashem?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, is that something that's in the Jewish supplemental texts and oral information to the Torah and the Tanakh?

Yes, again you have to remember that ancient Hebrew texts were written w/o vowels and without punciation. Even today Torah scrolls are written written w/o vowels and without punciation. Thus, the written w/o vowels and without punciation are oral Torah.

Even the Dead Sea scrolls were written w/o vowels and without punciation. Thus, you have to have an Oral Torah to know even read them.

Also, do you know the exact pronunciation of it since that seems to be a mystery to everyone else?

I might, but I wouldn't discuss that on a forum. You have to understand the non-Jewish concept of a name is vastly different then the Torah one. Even having a discussion with someone who doesn't know Hebrew/Aramaic/and Torah based culture is like speaking a different language. Thus, it is a topic I would not discuss with someone who I am not face to face with, and even then most Jews are not in the business of going deep into this topic for the cultural reasons that any Jew reading this would already know.

And would it be a sin to even say it or use it before there is a Torah based kingdom and Temple?

For someone who is not Jewish it would not be a sin, mainly because the non-Jewish world doesn't even know it. Some think they do, but if you go back to my previous explaintion they are missing the mark on that one. Also, there are some people who claim they, they put out information to sell stuff, and are pulling the wool over people's eyes who don't know Hebrew.

In terms of Jews, the only Jews I know of who are obsessing about "pronuciation" usually have some kind of issues to begin with. They also ALL people who don't know Torah, 99% of the time know Hebrew, don't learn from someone who knows Torah, or have had some type of mental breakdown at some point. I.e. they are doing so i an Avodah Zara kind of way.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, are you saying that the word "name" in that text is what is translated as Hashem?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I didn't say dictate, I said discuss. Just like we are having a discussion.

Some discussions are a form of dictation especially if the goal is to compare notes as if there is a competition or to convert someone to a particular way or idea.

Consider how long the JW movement has been around compared to Torath Mosheh Jews. You are talking about thousands of year prior. There is nothing that they bring to a table that we Jews are sitting at. It is already set before they get there.

Also, the JW have missionaries here in Israel that go around. A few years of ago a couple of Hebrew speaking JW missionaries came to my place, here in Jerusalem, claiming they wanted to have a dicussion about the Tanakh and the new testament. When I told them I would be willing to "discuss" with them the Hebrew Tanakh w/o the new testament their real intentions became clear the the dictation of why they were really going the neighborhood started.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, why isn't it in your Hebrew text (or Old Testament as Christians call it)? Because the Hebrew texts that I've seen translated into English doesn't have it. For example:

You said the magic words "translation." What is a translation? Jews who know Hebrew don't need a translation. Jews who don't Hebrew and rely on a translation know that they need to sit with Jews who does know Hebrew and learn Torah from them and with them. Further, even Jews who don't know Hebrew know that the original Hebrew is the source text and not the translation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, does that translate to: People (including Christians) who don't know Hebrew don't really know what they're reading when they read the Hebrew text?

I will word what you are trying to say a little better.

"People (including Christians) who don't know Hebrew don't really know what is and what is not in the original Hebrew text. They are not at all reading the Hebrew text.

They're reading someone's "attempt" to translate ideas, concepts, cultural references, etc. and some translators are not good at this. Some translators have agendas and some translators ignore the concepts, cultural references, etc. of the actual authors of said texts. When said non-Hebrew speakers, readers, etc. read from translations that are claimed to be translations of the Hebrew text they are at the mercy of the translator and seperated from the actual text."​

And conversely, do people who are not Jewish, but who can read Hebrew, do they know what they're reading when they read the Hebrew text?

People who know Hebrew, and ignore the fact that Torath Mosheh Jews, Samaritans, and Karaites are THE only source of transmission of the Hebrew language from the past to the present are actually not reading Hebrew. They more than likely made something up and are pretending to know to Hebrew. Christians who know Hebrew are clear that they had to interact with Jewish sources in Hebrew/Aramaic in order to even learn the language. They are also aware that there is a difference between ancient Hebrew and modern Hebrew. Many of them are also clear about the problems, fabrications, etc. in the "Christian" old testament translations produced among Christians.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

When I told them I would be willing to "discuss" with them the Hebrew Tanakh w/o the new testament their real intentions became clear the the dictation of why they were really going the neighborhood started.

What were their intentions, do you think?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What were their intentions, do you think?

There is a law here in Israel making it illegal to missionize. I.e. it is illegal for someone to try to missionize someone out of the religion to another. Because Christian missionaries here know this law exists some of them have come up with clever ways to get around it.

The couple in question came and claimed that they were going around the neighborhood to talk about hope by using the Tanakh and the new testament. They also used terminology to describe their organization that most Hebrew speaking Israelis would not recognize. When I questioned them about who they were they eventually identified themselves as JW's.

They also dressed in a way where most Israelis would think they were a young Modern Orthodox Jewish couple. It wasn't until right before they left that they said something and I asked, "Wait. Are you even Jewish?" They admitted no, and I told them that they should be Noachides. They left at that point, I guess feeling like I had wasted their time by challenging their concepts about the new testament.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I appreciate your reply, although I’m not exactly following you…..if they had been expressing concepts about the nt, why would you then ask if they were Jewish at the end of the conversation?

Are Jewish people known to discuss nt concepts?
Just curious.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

if they had been expressing concepts about the nt, why would you then ask if they were Jewish at the end of the conversation?

Because there are people who are biologically from Jewish parents who have become Christians who then go out and try to missionize to Jews. Also, the level of Hebrew the spoke made me think they were raised speaking Hebrew but at a certain point it was clear that it was learned for the purpose of missionaries. As missionaries go they put a lot of time into learning Hebrew to missionize.

Further, they were dressed in a way to make it appear that they were Jewish. Before they really explained what they were doing I automatically thought they were a Modern Orthodox Jewish couple. It was because of they were dressed. There are missioniaries here in Israel who have been caught going as far as to fake paperwork to make it seem that they are Jewish when they are not.

Are Jewish people known to discuss nt concepts? Just curious.

Concepts derived from the NT, no unless there is some reason. For example, because the fact that there are christians who are trying to missionize Jews there are situations where the topic comes up due to that. But, no outside of that Jews don't sit around talking about the NT.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, is that something that's in the Jewish supplemental texts and oral information to the Torah and the Tanakh?

One other thing to point out. There is no real "supplemental" text for Torath Mosheh Jews. There is what is "halakha" and there is what is Musar. Essentially, every text out there that has a valid Torath Mosheh background is teaching Torah is itself Torah. Based on the meaning of the word.

 

[rosends]

What is the Jewish understanding of Exodus 6:3,



the Tetragrammaton (i.e. YHWH), the Jewish spelling of G-d, and the word Hasem?

Also, Exodus 6:3 doesn't make sense to me considering that Eve uses the Tetragrammaton when refering to God at Genesis 4:1(link):



And then there's Genesis 13:4 and Genesis 14:22. Also, why do Jews spell God as G-d and use the word Hashem?

You ask a variety of questions. I'll start with the simplest ones to answer:

Hashem -- Hebrew for "the name". Since Judaism forbids using God's name in a non-holy context (such as actual prayer) when we make reference to God outside of those contexts, we replace it with the phrase "the name" so we know about what we speak without saying a word in an inappropriate context. There are other, similar nicknames, but that one is important because...

The four letter name -- (often written in English as yhvh or yhwh) is a combination of consonants which speaks to God's eternal nature and merciful aspect. The actual pronunciation is basically unknown today but when it was known, it was used in only specific contexts. So in order to ensure that we don't say it inadvertently now, we don't pronounce it at all, and instead of saying it as a "name" of God, we replace it with "the name." In religious contexts, we replace it with a word which is a slightly altered form of "my master" because we wouldn't use the actual pronunciation, even in regular prayer.

The commandment not to use God's name in non-proper context is subject to the following debate -- is a translation (or the word referring to God in another language) "holy" enough that it is subject to the same limitations on use? One rule is that we may not (except in a very specific context) erase the name of God. So if the English word g-o-d counts as a "name" of God, then we shouldn't be writing it if the writing will be erased (or you close your screen). So some Jews replace a letter with a dash or something like that so they aren't actually writing the name to begin with. Therefore whatever is erased wasn't a properly constructed name of God.

The understanding of 6:3 isn't that God is saying "these letters constitute my name and I never told your ancestors that name" because if so, you could easily point to places where that set of letters IS used and say "hey, contradiction!" The understanding is that God is revealing an aspect of his character which wasn't known earlier. One commentator writes as an explanation, "I was not recognised by them in My attribute of “keeping faith”... for, indeed, I made promises to them but did not fulfill them [during their lifetime]". Another explanation is that the phrase means "I was not known to them ONLY as...".

Another explanation hinges on the introductory prefix B' in the verse's Hebrew, and indicates "G’d is saying is that He has not made a point of becoming familiar to the patriarchs by His attribute Hashem when appearing to them, such as in the example mentioned. This was because He never experienced the need to change the laws of nature on their behalf."

There are, of course, many other explanations and understandings.

 

[David Davidovich]

You said the magic words "translation." What is a translation? Jews who know Hebrew don't need a translation. Jews who don't Hebrew and rely on a translation know that they need to sit with Jews who does know Hebrew and learn Torah from them and with them. Further, even Jews who don't know Hebrew know that the original Hebrew is the source text and not the translation.

So, are you saying that the Tetragrammaton or the four letters that represent what most people view as YHWH is actually in the Hebrew text? Although, from what I found, they are.

click here: Tetragrammaton - Wikipedia

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Exodus 3:15….(BibleHub)

New Living Translation
“God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you. This is my eternal name, my name to remember for all generations.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
“God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.”

American Standard Version
“And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

His Name should set Him apart from all other gods. It’s in the ancient Hebrew text over 6,820 times.

He is “to be remembered” that way, right?
But what have most translators done? Replaced it with “LORD”

Shame on them.

IMO

 

[David Davidovich]

Some discussions are a form of dictation especially if the goal is to compare notes as if there is a competition or to convert someone to a particular way or idea.

Consider how long the JW movement has been around compared to Torath Mosheh Jews. You are talking about thousands of year prior. There is nothing that they bring to a table that we Jews are sitting at. It is already set before they get there.

Also, the JW have missionaries here in Israel that go around. A few years of ago a couple of Hebrew speaking JW missionaries came to my place, here in Jerusalem, claiming they wanted to have a dicussion about the Tanakh and the new testament. When I told them I would be willing to "discuss" with them the Hebrew Tanakh w/o the new testament their real intentions became clear the the dictation of why they were really going the neighborhood started.

For someone who is not Jewish it would not be a sin, mainly because the non-Jewish world doesn't even know it. Some think they do, but if you go back to my previous explaintion they are missing the mark on that one. Also, there are some people who claim they, they put out information to sell stuff, and are pulling the wool over people's eyes who don't know Hebrew.

In terms of Jews, the only Jews I know of who are obsessing about "pronuciation" usually have some kind of issues to begin with. They also ALL people who don't know Torah, 99% of the time know Hebrew, don't learn from someone who knows Torah, or have had some type of mental breakdown at some point. I.e. they are doing so i an Avodah Zara kind of way.

Well, one conclusion that I've come to from the discussions I've had with you at this forum, and also from the other threads at this forum is that everyone seems to "know," and everyone seems to be sure about what they know. And you know what you know, and you are absolutely sure about what you know. Also, I've had experience with Jehovah's Witnesses, and they are very confident in what they know and are very sure about it. Same thing with Christians and Muslims. Also, they have the scriptures and the reasoning to prove it (or at least they think they do).

However, it's really hard to make sense of it all and that is why I ask so many questions about religion. (Plus, I find it interesting.) Although, it seems like what people generally do is take sides... or choose the sacred text interpretation which makes the most sense to them. However, one has to wonder: Where exactly does all that stuff come from? What is the source of it all? Is it just human thought and human imagination?

Therefore, I can see how atheists can come to their conclusion where in spite of all the religious talk and reasoning and sacred texts and doctrines and interpretations and holiness and spiritual experiences, etc., that something isn't quite right about all this.

Additionally, from what I have been learning from my discussions with you is that the Torath Mosheh Jewish faith is very, very complex and complicated, and it seems like a person has to be raised in that faith in order to really learn it all (or what's needed to be known) and understand it. Plus, it seems as if Hashem is only interested in people of Jewish lineage and who abide by the Torah, and it's just kind of tough luck for the rest of those misguided souls.

 

[David Davidovich]

One other thing to point out. There is no real "supplemental" text for Torath Mosheh Jews. There is what is "halakha" and there is what is Musar. Essentially, every text out there that has a valid Torath Mosheh background is teaching Torah is itself Torah. Based on the meaning of the word.

Yes, I actually came to that conclusion myself after having the discussion in the Judaism and Supplemental Material | Religious Forums thread.