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What is the Harm in a Little Woo?

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Religious and spiritual belief encourages people to believe in their own feelings and instincts... even when those feelings and instincts are contradicted by reality or logic. It discourages people from being aware of the fact that their feelings and instincts can be easily deceived, played on by con artists and charlatans, or just by our own wishful thinking. It discourages people from being aware of this well-documented fact, and trying to stay vigilant about it. Every unsupported belief you hold makes you that much more vulnerable to other ones... and that much less likely to value skepticism and critical thinking at all.
What's the Harm in a Little Woo?

Yes, in the US at least, you have the freedom to believe what you want but, should you?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Religious and spiritual belief encourages people to believe in their own feelings and instincts... even when those feelings and instincts are contradicted by reality or logic. It discourages people from being aware of the fact that their feelings and instincts can be easily deceived, played on by con artists and charlatans, or just by our own wishful thinking. It discourages people from being aware of this well-documented fact, and trying to stay vigilant about it. Every unsupported belief you hold makes you that much more vulnerable to other ones... and that much less likely to value skepticism and critical thinking at all.
What's the Harm in a Little Woo?

Yes, in the US at least, you have the freedom to believe what you want but, should you?
Contemplate how many people would be out of a job if bull**** peddler wasn't a profession any more.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Lots of interesting assumptions that author makes. It lays bare their personal values, if nothing else, but says little about the human condition as a whole.

We have enough problems in my country with the humans here undervaluing (if not shunning) emotions, leading to poor emotional intelligence and dysfunctional mental health.

Having emotions - being human - does not make one easier to deceive or hinder awareness of charlatans. Having emotions - being human - does not make one less able to practice skepticism of critical thinking. That these words need to be written at all is some sort of ridiculous. If anything, failure to be emotionally mature causes these things because you aren't self-aware enough to understand your own triggers.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Religious and spiritual belief encourages people to believe in their own feelings and instincts... even when those feelings and instincts are contradicted by reality or logic. It discourages people from being aware of the fact that their feelings and instincts can be easily deceived, played on by con artists and charlatans, or just by our own wishful thinking. It discourages people from being aware of this well-documented fact, and trying to stay vigilant about it. Every unsupported belief you hold makes you that much more vulnerable to other ones... and that much less likely to value skepticism and critical thinking at all.
What's the Harm in a Little Woo?

Yes, in the US at least, you have the freedom to believe what you want but, should you?
The title of the thread made me laugh, but it was surprisingly a very well thought out article.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Lots of interesting assumptions that author makes. It lays bare their personal values, if nothing else, but says little about the human condition as a whole.

We have enough problems in my country with the humans here undervaluing (if not shunning) emotions, leading to poor emotional intelligence and dysfunctional mental health.

Having emotions - being human - does not make one easier to deceive or hinder awareness of charlatans. Having emotions - being human - does not make one less able to practice skepticism of critical thinking. That these words need to be written at all is some sort of ridiculous. If anything, failure to be emotionally mature causes these things because you aren't self-aware enough to understand your own triggers.

This reply is almost completely divorced from any of the actual arguments the author of the article makes. Not once did she criticize "having emotions." What she said is that trusting emotions, which are notoriously fickle, or faith-based, evidence-free beliefs over actual empirical evidence is a recipe for making poor decisions.
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
Religious and spiritual belief encourages people to believe in their own feelings and instincts... even when those feelings and instincts are contradicted by reality or logic. It discourages people from being aware of the fact that their feelings and instincts can be easily deceived, played on by con artists and charlatans, or just by our own wishful thinking. It discourages people from being aware of this well-documented fact, and trying to stay vigilant about it. Every unsupported belief you hold makes you that much more vulnerable to other ones... and that much less likely to value skepticism and critical thinking at all.
What's the Harm in a Little Woo?

Yes, in the US at least, you have the freedom to believe what you want but, should you?


Summed up as

"I don't believe in it is so it's BS"... Woo
 

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
Religious and spiritual belief encourages people to believe in their own feelings and instincts... even when those feelings and instincts are contradicted by reality or logic. It discourages people from being aware of the fact that their feelings and instincts can be easily deceived, played on by con artists and charlatans, or just by our own wishful thinking. It discourages people from being aware of this well-documented fact, and trying to stay vigilant about it. Every unsupported belief you hold makes you that much more vulnerable to other ones... and that much less likely to value skepticism and critical thinking at all.
What's the Harm in a Little Woo?

Yes, in the US at least, you have the freedom to believe what you want but, should you?



The Mental Health Benefits of Religion & Spirituality | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness.

Religion, which in many secular circles, would be considered woo, is beneficial for people more then a hindrance.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The Mental Health Benefits of Religion & Spirituality | NAMI: National Alliance on Mental Illness.

Religion, which in many secular circles, would be considered woo, is beneficial for people more then a hindrance.
I consider religion woo, or more precisely, almost all religions have an element of woo and it is on a gradient how much woo there is and how dangerous it is.
When you believe that you should pray multiple times a day at defined times to be eligible for heaven, it gives your day structure. If you believe you'll go to heaven when you die in an act of terror, it disrupts the structure of other peoples day (and possibly the structural integrity of multiple buildings).
Both rest on the irrational belief that there is a heaven and your actions influence whether you go there.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Honestly, I deeply believe that in Europe, the 90% of people are atheists. Within this 90% there are those who are allegedly religious people, but deep inside believe in no deity or in no afterlife.

So I am convinced that people in Europe are a priori skeptical.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I consider religion woo, or more precisely, almost all religions have an element of woo and it is on a gradient how much woo there is and how dangerous it is.
When you believe that you should pray multiple times a day at defined times to be eligible for heaven, it gives your day structure. If you believe you'll go to heaven when you die in an act of terror, it disrupts the structure of other peoples day (and possibly the structural integrity of multiple buildings).
Both rest on the irrational belief that there is a heaven and your actions influence whether you go there.

Anthropologically, religions are cultural products that were created not because of boredom.
But because peoples, individuals develop the awareness of death.
That we are all doomed to death.
So human existence is necessarily to be within something projected, limited that has a beginning and an end.
So it's supposed to be meaningful and worthy.

Martin Heidegger was an atheist. He wrote that life is supposed to be a Sein zum Tode.

I am preoccupied with those who lack this awareness, instead.
Those who believe we are eternal. And so they are not capable of acknowledging that there is a time for each thing. Each thing at each age. And yet people with ninety would like to do what teenagers do...or children would like to do what adults do.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I wondered how the author was framing the word "woo". There are 3 sections that stood out.

Neo-paganism. Wicca. Goddess worship. Astrology. Telepathy. Visualization. Psychic healing. The hodgepodge of Eastern and pre-modern religious beliefs imported into modern America -- reincarnation, karma, chakras, shamanism etc. -- that have been jumbled together and made palatable to a Western audience (what I call "Pier 1 spirituality"). Channeling. Tarot cards. Etc. And I want to talk about why I have a problem with it.
...
There's an obvious, practical, direct way that woo can do harm. And that's the fact that false premises lead to bad decisions. Woo beliefs are untested and untestable at best; tested and demonstrably false at worst. And basing your life on a false premise is going to lead to you bad decisions. Garbage in, garbage out, as the data processors say. And I think this shows up most obviously when it comes to medicine.

I agree with her partly. I agree that whatever one's beliefs, action, especially in the medical sphere, should be based on what works. If I have a serious operation and friends want to pray for me, I have zero issue with that. But I would not substitute prayer for the operation.

If you believe in reincarnation, you're going to be a lot more careless about taking advantage of once- in- a- lifetime opportunities and experiences.

That's superficial and wrong besides. I a few situations my belief in reincarnation led me to exactly take advantage of "once-in-a-lifetime" situations. This is because I had the sense that I had failed to do so in other lives and this time I was not going to let that pass me by. I'm not alone.

Also, she ignores the reincarnation evidence. It's not strong enough to prove reincarnation but the research is good enough to have well-documented examples for which reincarnation is a valid explanation.

They see woo as a way of altering their consciousness, re-wiring their own heads, rather than a way of directly changing external reality. And that kind of woo, I don't have a huge problem with. In fact, if that's really and truly how someone is practicing it -- and they're not using it as a substitute for medicine or something -- I don't think I have a problem with it at all.

This is called in my circle having your feet on the ground while your consciousness soars. Or having mind and heart in balance.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Religious and spiritual belief encourages people to believe in their own feelings and instincts... even when those feelings and instincts are contradicted by reality or logic. It discourages people from being aware of the fact that their feelings and instincts can be easily deceived, played on by con artists and charlatans, or just by our own wishful thinking. It discourages people from being aware of this well-documented fact, and trying to stay vigilant about it. Every unsupported belief you hold makes you that much more vulnerable to other ones... and that much less likely to value skepticism and critical thinking at all.
What's the Harm in a Little Woo?

Yes, in the US at least, you have the freedom to believe what you want but, should you?

Well, we all like to pitch a little woo now and again.

Although I can see where the debate continues as to which situations to use "woo whee" versus "woo hoo."
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Anthropologically, religions are cultural products that were created not because of boredom.
But because peoples, individuals develop the awareness of death.
Anthropologically, religions were formed to control the masses. Psychologically, the fear of death of was a useful mechanism.
(Assuming we define religion as an organized tradition beyond shamanism which existed before religion.)
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Anthropologically, religions were formed to control the masses. Psychologically, the fear of death of was a useful mechanism.
(Assuming we define religion as an organized tradition beyond shamanism which existed before religion.)

Death exists.
They didn't invent anything.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
All religions are incredible to me. There is great strength, power, and wisdom in each of them. There is also the potential for great danger… which makes it all the more exciting. Humans are beautiful, and humans are terrible. Our religions, and the ways in which we might practice them… reflect this.

The spiritual-religious system I developed for myself enhances everything I do. It is my Weltanschauung refined, into the greatest weapon. It is a corridor of dreams and ambitions, illuminated by True Will. It is sacred culture, and personal tradition. It is a numinous map of where I have been, and where I am going. It is a monument to who I was, to who I am becoming, and most of all… to my gods, who exemplify the most prominent aspects of who I am and who I Will to become.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
According to which anthropologists?

It's certainly not the dominant position AFAIK (as opposed to say creating bonds of fictive kinships, etc.)
You have read the definition I used, haven't you?
Organized religion only became a thing with permanent settlements, agriculture and groups exceeding the Dunbar number. Religion was (and is) a tool of power.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Religious and spiritual belief encourages people to believe in their own feelings and instincts... even when those feelings and instincts are contradicted by reality or logic. It discourages people from being aware of the fact that their feelings and instincts can be easily deceived, played on by con artists and charlatans, or just by our own wishful thinking. It discourages people from being aware of this well-documented fact, and trying to stay vigilant about it. Every unsupported belief you hold makes you that much more vulnerable to other ones... and that much less likely to value skepticism and critical thinking at all.
What's the Harm in a Little Woo?

Yes, in the US at least, you have the freedom to believe what you want but, should you?

It is important to have the freedom to believe what we want. That can so easily be denied by Governments that believe they know what the truth is and which want to force everyone in their realm to hold the same views.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Religious and spiritual belief encourages people to believe in their own feelings and instincts... even when those feelings and instincts are contradicted by reality or logic. It discourages people from being aware of the fact that their feelings and instincts can be easily deceived, played on by con artists and charlatans, or just by our own wishful thinking. It discourages people from being aware of this well-documented fact, and trying to stay vigilant about it. Every unsupported belief you hold makes you that much more vulnerable to other ones... and that much less likely to value skepticism and critical thinking at all.
What's the Harm in a Little Woo?

Yes, in the US at least, you have the freedom to believe what you want but, should you?
This rather shallow passage seems to me to contain at least one false idea about religion and makes some tendentious assertions.

It is untrue that religion encourages trust in feelings and instincts to the point of contradicting reality (whatever that means) or logic. Some branches of some religions may do this but it is not intrinsic to religion in general. And who says what "reality" consists of in the first place? As for the notion that every unsupported belief you hold makes you more open to others, what's her evidence for that? And again, who decides what constitutes an "unsupported" belief? Supported or unsupported how?

It is also objectionable to suggest that religion = woo. Woo is a term used for pseudoscience. Religion is not remotely like pseudoscience.

So in sum, a fairly lousy article. Or that's my reaction at least.
 
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