What is the Greatest Sacrifice?

[bartdanr]

Hi All,

What is the greatest sacrifice that you can imagine?

Many people here might point to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross--"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not die, but have everlasting life." or "Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for his friends." or even "God showed his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

However, I saw a fictional account of love that seemed in theory, at least, to show far greater love: Star Trek (what? Star Trek???). No, not Spock's sacrifice when the Enterprise was about to be destroyed by the Genesis wave. I mean the episode "The Alternative Factor." In it, a man named Lazarus found a way to cross over from our matter universe to another universe, one made of anti-matter. In this universe was another Lazarus, one who was insane and could not stand the existence of "another" Lazarus. He wanted to distroy the Lazarus, and didn't care if that meant the total destruction of both Universes. Whenever they met in a sort of ante-chamber between the universes, they would fight. If they ever both met outside of this ante-chamber, both universes would be destroyed.

The "good" Lazarus decided to take some action, and seal himself in this anteroom with the madman for eternity, to keep both universes safe.

At the end of the episode, the crew of the Enterprise mused at Lazarus' sacrifice--to spend eternity with a madman at your throat in order to keep two universes safe.

To me, this seems to be the greatest sacrifice imaginable (if not possible): to spend an eternity in hell with one who hates you, in order to save others.

What do you all think?

Peace

 

[michel]

Hi All,

What is the greatest sacrifice that you can imagine?

Many people here might point to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross--"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not die, but have everlasting life." or "Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for his friends." or even "God showed his love for us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

However, I saw a fictional account of love that seemed in theory, at least, to show far greater love: Star Trek (what? Star Trek???). No, not Spock's sacrifice when the Enterprise was about to be destroyed by the Genesis wave. I mean the episode "The Alternative Factor." In it, a man named Lazarus found a way to cross over from our matter universe to another universe, one made of anti-matter. In this universe was another Lazarus, one who was insane and could not stand the existence of "another" Lazarus. He wanted to distroy the Lazarus, and didn't care if that meant the total destruction of both Universes. Whenever they met in a sort of ante-chamber between the universes, they would fight. If they ever both met outside of this ante-chamber, both universes would be destroyed.

The "good" Lazarus decided to take some action, and seal himself in this anteroom with the madman for eternity, to keep both universes safe.

At the end of the episode, the crew of the Enterprise mused at Lazarus' sacrifice--to spend eternity with a madman at your throat in order to keep two universes safe.

To me, this seems to be the greatest sacrifice imaginable (if not possible): to spend an eternity in hell with one who hates you, in order to save others.

What do you all think?

Peace

Without going into the realms of science fiction, to be killed for my beliefs.

 

[Ori]

Dying to save anyone else.

 

[Fluffy]

Suffering extreme pain for the sake of another. Death is freedom for me so I couldn't attribute that as a sacrifice as such.

 

[bartdanr]

Without going into the realms of science fiction, to be killed for my beliefs.

HI Michel, thanks for your response.

However, since we're in the realm of religion, the answer can be even more fantastic than science fiction!

I don't know if I'd agree that being killed for my beliefs would be the greatest sacrifice...unless perhaps we expand "beliefs" to include "the belief that it is better to die than to betray another" (for example, if you were hiding and protecting someone from death who didn't deserve it and you refuse to betray them.)

If there is a hell, I would think that to chose hell deliberately, when offered heaven, if that chosing would somehow save someone else, would be the ultimate sacrifice. Eternal torment--or heck, even just lengthy torment--seems far greater of a sacrifice to me than death, IMO.

Peace

 

[Crystal Red]

Dying to save anyone else.

I agree with this, but I think what would be even more great is dying, so that an enemy can live.

Not that I would ever do it, you have to earn the privelage of me dying for you.

 

[cardero]

time









this message is too short please lengthen your response to 10 letters.

 

[bartdanr]

I agree with this, but I think what would be even more great is dying, so that an enemy can live.

Hi Crystal Red, thanks for your post.

By dying to let an enemy live, would it depend on the nature of the enemy? For example, what if your enemy was bent on destroying millions of people (or make them suffer in unimaginable ways)? Would those who were your enemy's victim's consider it a sacrifice if you died that s/he might live?

Peace

 

[Crystal Red]

Hi Crystal Red, thanks for your post.

By dying to let an enemy live, would it depend on the nature of the enemy? For example, what if your enemy was bent on destroying millions of people (or make them suffer in unimaginable ways)? Would those who were your enemy's victim's consider it a sacrifice if you died that s/he might live?

Peace

I'm not actually sure whether you meant greatest sacrifice as in the best one, most respectworthy etc, or whether you meant the most you could sacrifice as a person, whether it was regarded as a good idea or not. I was responding to the latter.

I was thinking for example, an enemy of yours, someone whom you hate more than anything, for irrelevant reasons, is in some situation where you could save them but it would mean you die, or you could save yourself & let they would die. I don't think it's a good idea, I certainly wouldn't do it, but an all loving religion, ie Christianity came to mind, surely any good Christian would give their life for someone if it was needed, regardless of who it was, giving your life for someone you love is understandable, but giving your life for an enemy is the biggest sacrifice anyone could make.

 

[cardero]

Dying to save anyone else.

Yes, but you can only do it once. People will remember you more for the slices of life you shared within their prescence.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

HMmmm, guys guess what, all those who say that dying for someone is the greatest sacrifice, well we have all made this sacrifice, and don't even realize it. Dying is not the sacrifice. Being born is the sacrifice. Leaving the comfort of God's light and choosing to come back to this level of consciousness to help others wake up to the reality of their experience. We each made a promise to others to come back and right the wrongs we've done in all our lifetimes.

We didn't have to be reborn, we could have stayed as spirits and communicated through people like MasterVigil. But, no, we chose to take the more difficult route. We chose to come here and give as much love to as many people as we can. We promised to bring in lost sheep and heal the sick, and comfort the weary. And because we chose to take on this material form, we also must face the death of this physical body. The danger is that once we are born, we begin to forget the promises we made, and the goals we set. The material world puts veils over us, and makes it hard for us to see. But as the veils are lifted, we begin to remember. And the truth is that we have already sacrificed ourselves for others, do not let it be in vain. Let there be purpose for your long-suffering.

 

[Crystal Red]

HMmmm, guys guess what, all those who say that dying for someone is the greatest sacrifice, well we have all made this sacrifice, and don't even realize it. Dying is not the sacrifice. Being born is the sacrifice. Leaving the comfort of God's light and choosing to come back to this level of consciousness to help others wake up to the reality of their experience. We each made a promise to others to come back and right the wrongs we've done in all our lifetimes.

But not everyone believes that, there is nothing more precious that you can give up than life, there are things more precious such as truth but who can really give up truth?

 

[bartdanr]

I'm not actually sure whether you meant greatest sacrifice as in the best one, most respectworthy etc, or whether you meant the most you could sacrifice as a person, whether it was regarded as a good idea or not. I was responding to the latter.

I was thinking for example, an enemy of yours, someone whom you hate more than anything, for irrelevant reasons, is in some situation where you could save them but it would mean you die, or you could save yourself & let they would die. I don't think it's a good idea, I certainly wouldn't do it, but an all loving religion, ie Christianity came to mind, surely any good Christian would give their life for someone if it was needed, regardless of who it was, giving your life for someone you love is understandable, but giving your life for an enemy is the biggest sacrifice anyone could make.

Thanks again for the response, Crystal Red.

So perhaps the "greatest sacrifice" in this view is giving the most you possibly can (your life) for the least possible return (your enemy's life)?

Peace

 

[Crystal Red]

So perhaps the "greatest sacrifice" in this view is giving the most you possibly can (your life) for the least possible return (your enemy's life)?

Hmmm...not quite sure that's what I meant, I'm nnot really sure I know what I mean. I don't like life being thrown away for no good reason, I think I have it, giving the most you can for the least return to you & the most for the one recieving.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

But not everyone believes that, there is nothing more precious that you can give up than life, there are things more precious such as truth but who can really give up truth?

Not everybody believed the world was round. Just because someone doesn't believe the truth, doesn't make it a lie.

Life exists outside of this material level. The veils make us believe that this is life, but this is just a shell around life. And just like the hermet crab, we will shed this body several times.

We are all going to die. So how can it be a sacrifice if it's something that you have to do anyway. Physical dying is just a consequence of choosing to be born. Jesus did not run away at the time of his death, he knew it was inevitable. He didn't have to go into town, he could have gone the other way, far, far away. But he was not affected by the veils of the material world, he saw is physical death for what it was, part of life.

 

[bartdanr]

We are all going to die. So how can it be a sacrifice if it's something that you have to do anyway. Physical dying is just a consequence of choosing to be born. Jesus did not run away at the time of his death, he knew it was inevitable. He didn't have to go into town, he could have gone the other way, far, far away. But he was not affected by the veils of the material world, he saw is physical death for what it was, part of life.

Hi EnhancedSpirit, thanks for your responses.

So in your view, Jesus' death on the cross was not a sacrifice? That his incarnation was the sacrifice--but no more so than any one of our incarnations?

Peace

 

[Crystal Red]

Jesus did not run away at the time of his death

He was nailed to a cross if I remember rightly, woudl have made it quite hard

I see what you mean, but the concious decision to give up life must be the most important decision some people make. & secondly I believe that if you don't believe in something it's not true, I don't believe in what you said, therefore it's not true for ME, I don't blame you for believing it, but since it can't be proven it must be classed a hypothetical situation, I agree that is a great sacrifice, were I to believe it was true it would be the greatest.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

He was nailed to a cross if I remember rightly, woudl have made it quite hard

I'm talking about before he was apprehended. He knew he was going to die if he went to Jerusalem. The disciples tried to convince him to go somewhere else. And Jesus says that this is his cup and he must drink from it.

So in your view, Jesus' death on the cross was not a sacrifice? That his incarnation was the sacrifice--but no more so than any one of our incarnations?

Yes, Jesus says that we are to be like him. His father is our father. We are to do the things he did. Heal the sick, feed the poor. Dying is not a sacrifice. How is going to Heaven a sacrifice? How is getting away from all the hate and violence considered to be the punishment? No, I say living in these bodies and experiencing life in this form is the sacrifice. Living is the hard part, not dying. I cannot say "no more than anyone else", but there is no comparison of one's life being more valuable than another. Jesus did it right. He showed us that it can be done. And that the bible was not just full of some unnatainable la la land with stories to keep the savages in line.

 

[bartdanr]

I'm talking about before he was apprehended. He knew he was going to die if he went to Jerusalem. The disciples tried to convince him to go somewhere else. And Jesus says that this is his cup and he must drink from it.

Yes, Jesus says that we are to be like him. His father is our father. We are to do the things he did. Heal the sick, feed the poor. Dying is not a sacrifice. How is going to Heaven a sacrifice? How is getting away from all the hate and violence considered to be the punishment? No, I say living in these bodies and experiencing life in this form is the sacrifice. Living is the hard part, not dying. I cannot say "no more than anyone else", but there is no comparison of one's life being more valuable than another. Jesus did it right. He showed us that it can be done. And that the bible was not just full of some unnatainable la la land with stories to keep the savages in line.

Hi EnhancedSpirit, thanks for your reponse.

I think you are correct when you state that dying is not the sacrifice, if heaven comes afterward--and death can't be avoided any way. Spending years of helping others would be much more of a sacrifice (of course, if this would increase your reward in heaven, then it isn't so much of a sacrifice as it would be training--like an athelete training hard to win the gold medal.)

I would say that even if death is oblivion, a constant giving for years in life is more of a sacrifice than dying--once it's over, no suffering.

However, if there is a hell, then I still think chosing hell so that others might avoid it would be the greatest sacrifice imaginable.

But sacrifice is really in the mind of the one sacrificing, isn't it? If you believe that whatever you are doing is the greatest sacrifice, then isn't it truly the greatest sacrifice? If you can't imagine giving something greater than your life, then if you gave it, didn't you give that which you cherished the most? And if continually giving to others and helping the less fortunate gives you great joy, can it truly be considered a sacrifice?

Peace

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

Well said. I agree. So can't really dispute anything from your last post. It is not how the world treats us, it's how we react that matters. And life is a school of sorts, for spiritual advancement. We are learning lessons. But some forget. The material world distracts them from their purpose.