What is the goal of Religion?

[Comprehend]

Teaching (preaching) and praying are not the same.

Yeshua went off by himself to pray. At no time does he pray in the public (as far as we know of).

I disagree, and as long as we are quoting scripture as evidence...

John 11:
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Luke 3:
21 ¶ Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

John 17:

1 ¶ THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.


ETC, ETC.

 

[wizanda]

Who is John? Nicodemus? form of Nicholas? Doctrine of Nicolaitans (Revelation)? So whom said that?

Mat 20:23
(23) And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Mar 10:17-21
(17) And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
(18) And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
(19) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
(20) And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
(21) Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

So Yeshua did not say what is in John, else he is stupid?

So quit with proclaiming John Nicodemus of the Pharisee high council gospel above those of 3 witnesses, all saying very much the same of what he did say.

 

[Jonathan Rex]

I disagree, and as long as we are quoting scripture as evidence...

John 11:
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Luke 3:
21 ¶ Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

John 17:

1 ¶ THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.


ETC, ETC.

Speaking out loud to God is not worshipping God. To Christians worshipping God is simply speaking to God. Christians have a deluded concept of what Worship truly means. Praying is not speaking to God. Prayer is worship. Talking is talking. If I talk to you, does that mean that I am worshipping you? Why then is talking to God considered Worship by Christians?

And btw, John 17 took place the night of his arrest. That was not in the public. He was alone with his disciples. (According to the book he went off alone by himself to pray too. Being outside is not the same as being in the public.)

Also, Luke was written by Paul's companion. Paul was a homosexual. I don't acknowledge Luke or Paul.

 

[joeboonda]

God bless the USA, where we still have freedom of religion.

 

[Comprehend]

What is the objective of individual religions?

Islam - To submit to Allah and do good
Christianity - To follow Yeshua's (Jesus) words, worship God and do good.
Judaism - To follow the law of Moses, worship God and do good.
Buddhism - To follow the teaching of Guatama, become a Buddha and do good.
Hinduism - To follow Krishna, and do good.
Zoroastrianism - To do as Zoroaster taught, and do good.
Taoism - Become one with the Tao, and do good.

There is a pattern here. This pattern has been ignored for thousands of years and has been replaced by dogmatic religious politics. The purpose of all religions was to establish a code of ethics by which the civilization lived unanimously and to take care of one another.

Whether you are Taoist, Confucian, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, Christian, or a Muslim (or one of the many minor religions/cults around the world) the purpose of your belief system is to take care of other human beings and serve humanity by giving something back to the earth, while you are here.

What good is faith if your actions are dead?
What does it mean to believe in God if you do not take care of your brothers and sisters (other human beings)?

Even an Atheist or Feminist can agree on this objective, so what is holding us back?
Why can people not believe in God in their various different ways and worship in the privacy of their own home, in their various different ways and live their faith by taking care of each other instead of discussing their faith?

Anybody who has to convince another person of their beliefs, whether they be Christian or Atheist, is really trying to convince their self. They want other people to accept their views because they are not comfortable practicing their religion alone.

There are flaws in every religion and as long as human beings continue debating the flaws, we as a world will never transcend the nonsense and achieve World Peace.

Hi,

I have to disagree with your idea at least as far as my religion is concerned.

The "goal" or purpose of my religion is summed up in the Book of Moses:
Moses 1:39
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

This is what my religion is aiming for. Doing good, loving my neighbor, etc. is not a goal but a method and an evidence of what I believe.

This scripture also shows exactly why LDS must seek to convert people to our religion. Not because we are insecure in our beliefs as you have supposed but rather because the purpose of our religion is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of as many as possible. We believe certain ordinances must be performed for individuals in order for this to happen, therefore it is incumbent upon us to share the information with others.

Sorry to disappoint you but it really has nothing to do with wanting company or being insecure.

 

[Comprehend]

Speaking out loud to God is not worshipping God. To Christians worshipping God is simply speaking to God. Christians have a deluded concept of what Worship truly means. Praying is not speaking to God. Prayer is worship. Talking is talking. If I talk to you, does that mean that I am worshipping you? Why then is talking to God considered Worship by Christians?

And btw, John 17 took place the night of his arrest. That was not in the public. He was alone with his disciples. (According to the book he went off alone by himself to pray too. Being outside is not the same as being in the public.)

Also, Luke was written by Paul's companion. Paul was a homosexual. I don't acknowledge Luke or Paul.

you are attempting to switch words for the sake of your argument. We were not discussing "worshipping". You said

At no time does he pray in the public

You don't get to switch to "worship" now.

So, back to praying. It is context that tells us whether someone is praying or simply speaking. also, a major hint in the scriptures is where the word "pray" is used, that is generally an indication that it is going on...

Now, take a closer look at the scriptures I provided. They clearly say that Jesus prayed. and he does it publicly.

John 11:
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Luke 3:
21 ¶ Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

John 17:

1 ¶ THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.


LOL. Oh, I see. so you call someone gay and then their writings don't count? So if I said you were gay would that mean I could say everything you just wrote has no signifigance?

What makes you think luke and paul were gay? Mighty convenient of you to just dismiss the books that prove you wrong. Why did Jesus accept Paul but you dont?

 

[Jonathan Rex]

Hi,

I have to disagree with your idea at least as far as my religion is concerned.

The "goal" or purpose of my religion is summed up in the Book of Moses:
Moses 1:39
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

This is what my religion is aiming for. Doing good, loving my neighbor, etc. is not a goal but a method and an evidence of what I believe.

This scripture also shows exactly why LDS must seek to convert people to our religion. Not because we are insecure in our beliefs as you have supposed but rather because the purpose of our religion is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of as many as possible. We believe certain ordinances must be performed for individuals in order for this to happen, therefore it is incumbent upon us to share the information with others.

Sorry to disappoint you but it really has nothing to do with wanting company or being insecure.

You're a Mormon, right?

 

[Jonathan Rex]

you are attempting to switch words for the sake of your argument. We were not discussing "worshipping". You said



You don't get to switch to "worship" now.

So, back to praying. It is context that tells us whether someone is praying or simply speaking. also, a major hint in the scriptures is where the word "pray" is used, that is generally an indication that it is going on...

Now, take a closer look at the scriptures I provided. They clearly say that Jesus prayed. and he does it publicly.

John 11:
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.

42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

Luke 3:
21 ¶ Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

John 17:

1 ¶ THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.


LOL. Oh, I see. so you call someone gay and then their writings don't count? So if I said you were gay would that mean I could say everything you just wrote has no signifigance?

What makes you think luke and paul were gay? Mighty convenient of you to just dismiss the books that prove you wrong. Why did Jesus accept Paul but you dont?

You are reading an English translation from a Greek translation of a man who spoke in Aramaic.

Yeshua did NOT worship God in public. He was a Nazarene. That is against the Nazarene Faith.

Do some research before you argue something you have absolutely no knowledge on. I don't care what "your" Bible says. Yeshua did not worship God in public. Speaking to God and Praying to God are not the same thing. When people worship God, they must prostrate themselves in that sense. There is also worship through actions. These are different words but they both mean worship English so this causes confusion. Prayer is another word for worship in english. But in Aramaic there is another word which refers to talking to God. Why are you arguing this? You worship what you do not know. You follow your televangelists (unwittingly) who are not giving people the Holy Spirit. Beware of those who claim to be selling you the Holy Spirit. They are demons in disquise.

If I speak to you am I praying to you?
Yes or no?

Let's use some common sense, please.

 

[Booko]

Yeshua did NOT worship God in public. He was a Nazarene. That is against the Nazarene Faith.

Nazarene has two meanings:

1. a person from Nazareth
2. a member of the Nazarene sect

Can you explain why the definition of "Nazarene" as applied to Jesus would be #2? Thanks.

Do some research before you argue something you have absolutely no knowledge on.

Always a good idea.

 

[Jonathan Rex]

Nazarene has two meanings:

1. a person from Nazareth
2. a member of the Nazarene sect

Can you explain why the definition of "Nazarene" as applied to Jesus would be #2? Thanks.

At that time they were one and the same. A person from Nazareth was a Nazarene.
Nazarenes lived in Nazareth because they rejected both the Pharisee and Sadducee sects and refused to live in Jerusalem.

They had been there for over a hundred years and Nazareth was regarded with disdain by the priesthood because they constantly criticized the leadership. John the Baptist was from among the Nazarenes (He was a Nazarite) and went out ahead of Yeshua and was preaching against Herod and others. Yeshua came forward and began preaching as well. The Nazarenes were his followers and he was their priest. Later when Paul undermined the movement by the Disciples and began preaching his false doctrine (Christianity) after trying to kill them all off and realizing that wasn't working, instead decided to destroy the Nazarene sect. Thus Luke 4:29. Luke was Paul's companion (Paul was a homosexual who never married and didn't particularly even like women, thus his teachings about women not speaking and so forth in church). There were countless prophetesses throughout the Old Testament. In fact, Isaiah's wife was called The Prophetess. Paul (or Saul) belonged to the diseased Judaic Priesthood which now rules politically over Israel in a nearly secular manner.

The Nazarenes wanted to overthrow the Priesthood and bring forth the Kingdom of God. Yeshua Ben Yosef believed that the time had come until Israel called on Rome. When that took place, he knew. He did not know at first but he understood in the end that he was to play the role of the suffering Messiah and he told Judas to go forth and "do what he must do," once he realized this. Christians love to ignore the verse (and they never preach it) where Yeshua said, "If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and purchase one now. The time is at hand." He planned on overthrowing the Priesthood and bringing forth a New Israel. There is a reason why he was arrested at night. He was planning to overthrow them the next day. Of course later on Christians altered the situation and made it appear as though he knew all along, but he didn't. He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey to rally the people around him. He knew and they knew that the prophecy stated that if Israel was sick then the Messiah would come on an ***. The people were rallying to him and the priesthood (functioning under Rome) turned to Rome to arrest him. They convinced Rome that he was an enemy of Caesar and that he planned on overthrowing Rome. Pilate was not so peaceful toward Yeshua as the revised Bible (of Christians) written in Rome made him out to be. He beat him because he wanted to beat him, not because he wanted to let him go.

They (the Priesthood) twisted up Yeshua's words and turned the people against him. Some of the Pharisees supported Yeshua (they were divided amongst themselves) and they were ran out of the priesthood. After they crucified him (Yeshua) Saul (from among them) went out trying to kill off all the disciples. When he failed he concocted a new plan, distort their teachings and make them a new religion and the Priesthood would remain in tact. Sadduccees and Pharisees were in conflict. Pharisees rules the Priesthood and Saul was a Sadduccee. He wanted to make Christians detest the Pharisees so that the Sadduccees could take the Priesthood. So he did this and changed his name to Paul (a Roman name), worked with Philo (a Jewish/Roman historian) and went about Rome teaching a false doctrine and incorperating it with Pagan beliefs. The Jews who knew that many of these beliefs were pagan rejected Yeshua Ben Yosef as Suffering Messiah because they believed that he taught these false doctrines and the Pharisees turned on the Nazarenes (whom Paul pretended to be aligned with) and destroyed them. Uprisings took place over and over during those short years between the various sects and Rome tried to gain control over them and couldn't so they burned the city to the ground and destroyed the temple.

Yeshua was of the Nazarene sect and Christianity is a Pharisaic cult diversion religion.
As Christianity grew, however, it turned against the Jews (as often occurs in false religions) and they began persecuting them and have continued to do so until today. But they persecuted ALL Jews. The Jews had no true priesthood and thus they lost the true doctrines and Rabbis began adding meaningless rules and regulations by the dozens into what is now the Talmud. There of course are good teaching but there are also meaningless ones. Now the Jews have regained control over Christians financially. The time is fast approaching when the Jews will be called back to Israel. All the true believers will return, repent (a condition for King Moshiach to make himself known to them) and then King Moshiach will take David's throne, unite the world and bring forth a complete Law, destroy all weapons of war and make Jerusalem (with its new name) the Holiest and Largest City on earth and all the laws of humanity will come out from that city as the ripples in a pool when you drop a stone into the water.

But he will not adher to any current religion. They are all corrupted. All have turned from the One True God. He will return the True Religion to humanity.

People tend to believe that Prophets know everything. Especially Christians. They do not. They know what is revealed to them as it is revealed and nothing more. They are not even intellectual people but the words that the LORD places in their mouth are so powerful that their genius becomes greater than that of any mortal man. The King Moshiach however will be a complete human being and will rule with justice and righteousness over the entire world. He is not just a prophet. He is Prophet/High Priest/King/Counselor and numerous other titles all rolled into one man.

 

[Comprehend]

You are reading an English translation from a Greek translation of a man who spoke in Aramaic.

And? do you have special access to an original aramaic text?

Yeshua did NOT worship God in public. He was a Nazarene. That is against the Nazarene Faith.

This is an assertion. have any evidence to back up your claim?

Do some research before you argue something you have absolutely no knowledge on.

Anger. Tainting the well. Attempting to hide a lack of arguement. Personal attack, and of course, childish.

I don't care what "your" Bible says.

admission that you can't answer my post.

Yeshua did not worship God in public. Speaking to God and Praying to God are not the same thing. When people worship God, they must prostrate themselves in that sense. There is also worship through actions.

according to you. your original post simply said, Jesus didn't pray in public. I showed evidence that he did. You have provided nothing as counter evidence. Rather you have insulted me, my religion and my bible. Very grown up. If you don't have an answer, just say so.

These are different words but they both mean worship English so this causes confusion. Prayer is another word for worship in english. But in Aramaic there is another word which refers to talking to God.

Thanks, I think I have it covered. The NT was written in Greek.

Worship in Greek - "proskuneo"
Pray in Greek - "proseuchomai" or sometimes even "deesis" or "erotao"
They don't look interchangeable to me and you said "pray" not worship. Why do you keep trying to change your argument?

Can you show me an example of Jesus "worshipping" God in the bible?

Why are you arguing this? You worship what you do not know.

You have no idea what I know. This is just another condescending attempt at deflecting your lack of an answer.

You follow your televangelists (unwittingly) who are not giving people the Holy Spirit. Beware of those who claim to be selling you the Holy Spirit. They are demons in disquise.

You are displaying your stunning lack of knowledge of anything I believe. Please tell me of some LDS televangelists and why you are so sure I "follow" them?

What LDS leaders claim to "sell" people the spirit? Who claims to "sell" the spirit? Oh, I see, just because YOU have something to sell here, you figure everyone else does? nice. Good luck selling your book...

If I speak to you am I praying to you?
Yes or no?

I hope not, you shouldn't pray to me. As for when Christ speaks in the NT, context is key. If He says things like "I pray" that might be a clue He is praying.

Let's use some common sense, please.

did you want me to wait? :slap:

 

[Jonathan Rex]

And? do you have special access to an original aramaic text?

No, but I do have access to God. We all do. Most people just don't use it because they depend on a mediator concept which was designed by moralist priests who use the divisive religion to make a moral monkey out of you. They tell you, "Dance monkey!" and you dance. They say, "Jesus is God! Repeat it!" and you say, "Jesus was God."

I want you to pause for one moment and do something. I want you to consciously think in your mind, "Is it possible that Jesus Christ never existed?" Don't say it, don't believe it. Just ask that question honestly to yourself. If you do, fear will be the first feeling that you feel. Why? Where does that fear come from? Brainwashing? Moral conditioning?

I don't need text or scriptures to know God.
Neither do you.

This is an assertion. have any evidence to back up your claim?

Nope, I just make statements and ask questions designed to make you make statements. If you want evidence, you can find somebody who will play the authority for either side. The fact is, the Bible is not evidence. The Bible cannot stand as it's own authority anymore than I can. You say, "Jesus was God." I say, "Prove it." What can you do? Show me a verse?

Anger. Tainting the well. Attempting to hide a lack of arguement. Personal attack, and of course, childish.

What makes you think I'm angry?

admission that you can't answer my post.

What makes you think that your Bible is right and all the books that were left out of the Bible are wrong? Hm? I've answered your question. You just don't "comprehend" (ironic name) it. Your ego is getting in the way. I make statements that are very vague and can be interpreted as angry or teasing (in a friendly manner) and you take them to be anger. That shows a lot about your personality. The fact that you think I am angry shows that you hold back a lot of your emotions and constrain yourself.

I have answered your post. I don't care what your Bible claims Yeshua said. If I say that he didn't say it and you say that he did and that your book is proof, then I can simply ask you to prove that Jesus Christ existed, which we both know you cannot do. Suddenly the debate is over. I don't need to prove that Jesus didn't say it. My word holds just as much validity as Pauls (or whoever wrote your Bible, Joseph Smith?)

Didn't he also claim that Cherokee are Hebrews? I'm Cherokee and I find that statement completely retarded.

according to you. your original post simply said, Jesus didn't pray in public. I showed evidence that he did. You have provided nothing as counter evidence. Rather you have insulted me, my religion and my bible. Very grown up. If you don't have an answer, just say so.

What makes your book evidence?

If I tell you that Othello was a real man and use Shakespeare's play to prove it, is that proof? Nope. Sorry chief, you have no argument. Prove that Jesus Christ existed. Not YESHUA BEN YOSEF. Prove that "Jesus Christ" existed. You cannot do it because Jesus Christ did not exist. He never existed. Yeshua Ben Yosef did. But Jesus Christ? Nope.

You want me to prove that Jesus Christ didn't pray in public and I can do that by telling you that he never existed and now it is automatically your job to prove he did (because one cannot prove a negative so I cannot be asked to prove he didn't).

And I win the debate.

Thanks, I think I have it covered. The NT was written in Greek.

Worship in Greek - "proskuneo"
Pray in Greek - "proseuchomai" or sometimes even "deesis" or "erotao"
They don't look interchangeable to me and you said "pray" not worship. Why do you keep trying to change your argument?

Yeshua was a Nazarene Jew. He spoke Hebrew and Aramaic. He would never preach to fellow Jews in Greek. Whoever wrote the Bible translated Yeshua's words from Aramaic to Greek. Translate it back. What are the words in Aramaic and Hebrew?

Can you show me an example of Jesus "worshipping" God in the bible?

Sure, the Garden the night of his arrest.
Then there is the verse where he tells the disciples specifically to pray in private behind closed doors. Would you like that verse? Matthew 6:5-18 clearly solves this whole debate. Was Jesus a hypocrite? Did he tell his followers to do something and then do the opposite?

You have no idea what I know. This is just another condescending attempt at deflecting your lack of an answer.

I've answered your question. Matthew 6:5-18.
Read it.

You are displaying your stunning lack of knowledge of anything I believe. Please tell me of some LDS televangelists and why you are so sure I "follow" them?

haha

Are you angry?

What LDS leaders claim to "sell" people the spirit? Who claims to "sell" the spirit? Oh, I see, just because YOU have something to sell here, you figure everyone else does? nice. Good luck selling your book...

Did I say anything about my book? Have I suggested that you buy it? What are you so worked up about? I haven't even mentioned my book. It's just a translation of the Tao Te Ching into Christian terms. I'm not selling God. If I were I wouldn't be carrying this conversation with you for free.

I hope not, you shouldn't pray to me. As for when Christ speaks in the NT, context is key. If He says things like "I pray" that might be a clue He is praying.

So did Shakespeare: "I pray thee, to make haste Heratio." Was he literally praying?
Context is everything. Matthew 6:5-16. Read it.

did you want me to wait? :slap:

Didn't you call me immature earlier in this post?

hahah

You are angry.
How old are you?
I'm 25.

 

[Comprehend]

No, but I do have access to God. We all do. Most people just don't use it because they depend on a mediator concept which was designed by moralist priests who use the divisive religion to make a moral monkey out of you. They tell you, "Dance monkey!" and you dance. They say, "Jesus is God! Repeat it!" and you say, "Jesus was God."

I want you to pause for one moment and do something. I want you to consciously think in your mind, "Is it possible that Jesus Christ never existed?" Don't say it, don't believe it. Just ask that question honestly to yourself. If you do, fear will be the first feeling that you feel. Why? Where does that fear come from? Brainwashing? Moral conditioning?

explain to me how you are sure that I do not use the "access" that is available to God. You don't know much of anything about me so it would be a pretty neat trick.

Why would I feel fear at considering the possiblity that Jesus did not exist? That is always an obvious possibility but one I had an answer to a long time ago. There is no fear involved.

Nope, I just make statements and ask questions designed to make you make statements. If you want evidence, you can find somebody who will play the authority for either side. The fact is, the Bible is not evidence. The Bible cannot stand as it's own authority anymore than I can. You say, "Jesus was God." I say, "Prove it." What can you do? Show me a verse?

I wasn't the one who made an assertion so I don't need any evidence...

What makes you think I'm angry?

I can't imagine.

What makes you think that your Bible is right and all the books that were left out of the Bible are wrong? Hm?

what makes you think I said anything like that?

I've answered your question. You just don't "comprehend" (ironic name) it. Your ego is getting in the way.

Anger again. condescending. Can't you just try to make a point or do you always have to belittle someone in order to defend your point?

I make statements that are very vague and can be interpreted as angry or teasing (in a friendly manner) and you take them to be anger. That shows a lot about your personality. The fact that you think I am angry shows that you hold back a lot of your emotions and constrain yourself.

Thanks Dr. Laura. I think it just shows that you are angry and can't defend your argument so you result to insults.

I have answered your post. I don't care what your Bible claims Yeshua said. If I say that he didn't say it and you say that he did and that your book is proof, then I can simply ask you to prove that Jesus Christ existed, which we both know you cannot do. Suddenly the debate is over.

I have offered biblical evidence of my claims. You have offered nothing but your opinion. I'll leave it to others to judge who made the stronger argument. If you want to simply declare the truth is the truth because you say it is, go right ahead. I doubt many people will listen....

I don't need to prove that Jesus didn't say it. My word holds just as much validity as Pauls (or whoever wrote your Bible, Joseph Smith?)

Yes, you are clearly just as much an authority on Jesus as Paul is... LOL. We use the KJV of the Bible. I will again forgive your ignorance of my religion.

Didn't he also claim that Cherokee are Hebrews? I'm Cherokee and I find that statement completely retarded.

Nope. He didn't. But nice of you to now increase your insults to a prophet of my religion as well as insulting the mentally handicapped. Very classy.

What makes your book evidence?

It makes a thing more likely to be true or not. You don't know what evidence is?

If I tell you that Othello was a real man and use Shakespeare's play to prove it, is that proof? Nope. Sorry chief, you have no argument. Prove that Jesus Christ existed. Not YESHUA BEN YOSEF. Prove that "Jesus Christ" existed. You cannot do it because Jesus Christ did not exist. He never existed. Yeshua Ben Yosef did. But Jesus Christ? Nope.

You want me to prove that Jesus Christ didn't pray in public and I can do that by telling you that he never existed and now it is automatically your job to prove he did (because one cannot prove a negative so I cannot be asked to prove he didn't).

No, it is obvious that you cannot prove Jesus did not pray in public. I asked you for your evidence. You seem to think it is true. Surely you base this belief on something right? I wanted to know what that was. That would be called evidence. Is it really this difficult?

Yeshua was a Nazarene Jew. He spoke Hebrew and Aramaic. He would never preach to fellow Jews in Greek. Whoever wrote the Bible translated Yeshua's words from Aramaic to Greek. Translate it back. What are the words in Aramaic and Hebrew?

If the greek is written incorrectly as you claim. then the translation from greek could not magically repair the mistakes if you translate it back into aramaic. That makes no sense.

Sure, the Garden the night of his arrest.
Then there is the verse where he tells the disciples specifically to pray in private behind closed doors. Would you like that verse? Matthew 6:5-18 clearly solves this whole debate. Was Jesus a hypocrite? Did he tell his followers to do something and then do the opposite?

Sorry, the greek word for worship doesn't appear in those verses.

DO YOU HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF JESUS "WORSHIPPING" GOD? (maybe the bigger letters will help)

Would you like to try again?

haha

Are you angry?

nope. just amazed at the lack of knowledge you are putting on display... keep going though. It gets better with each post.

Did I say anything about my book? Have I suggested that you buy it? What are you so worked up about? I haven't even mentioned my book. It's just a translation of the Tao Te Ching into Christian terms. I'm not selling God. If I were I wouldn't be carrying this conversation with you for free.

Thanks for the synopsis of your book, I'm not interested. I notice you conveniently have forgotten to answer the question. Here it is again:

What LDS leaders claim to "sell" people the spirit? Who claims to "sell" the spirit?

Didn't you call me immature earlier in this post?

nope.

How old are you?
I'm 25.

uh. I'm happily married. I'm not really interested thanks.:run:

 

[James the Persian]

Praying is not worship (it may be a part of it, but it is not the same). In fact, not only does Greek (and the original is Greek, it is not a translation of Aramaic) have separate words for prayer and worship, but it actually has separate words for different kinds of worship, only one of which is the worship due God alone. Nowhere in the NT does Christ forbid public worship. In fact he went to the Temple, Himself. More to the point, though, if you say that the Bible is not evidence then why do you even try to use it to support your claim? In effect, so far, your argument has been 'you shouldn't worship in public because in my opinion you shouldn't'. That's pretty circular don't you think?

Basically, though, this whole thread appears to have drifted off topic because I poionted out that many of our religions (and this wasn't a Christian specific thread at all) require corporate worship and that you seem to disapprove. Strangely enough, rather than explaining why, you've got on your soap box and preached at us that we shouldn't. Fact is, though, that that is merely your unevidenced opinion and in fact we do, whether you like it or not. Would you care to try again?

James

 

[Jonathan Rex]

Praying is not worship (it may be a part of it, but it is not the same). In fact, not only does Greek (and the original is Greek, it is not a translation of Aramaic) have separate words for prayer and worship, but it actually has separate words for different kinds of worship, only one of which is the worship due God alone. Nowhere in the NT does Christ forbid public worship. In fact he went to the Temple, Himself. More to the point, though, if you say that the Bible is not evidence then why do you even try to use it to support your claim? In effect, so far, your argument has been 'you shouldn't worship in public because in my opinion you shouldn't'. That's pretty circular don't you think?

If my logic were circular, it would be no different than the Bible's claim to being the Word of God. How do you know the Bible is the Word of God? Because it says so.
However, I did provide the verse and neither of you have read it.

Matthew 6:5-16
It's clear as day. I'm not saying that it is an authority. That is the trap that this lawyer above you tried to set. He asked me to prove it using the Bible. So I did. That doesn't mean that I consider the New Testament to be an authority. It simply means that Yeshua says it in the book, "Go into your house, shut your door and pray."
How more clear can it get? Read Matthew 6:5-16.

Basically, though, this whole thread appears to have drifted off topic because I poionted out that many of our religions (and this wasn't a Christian specific thread at all) require corporate worship and that you seem to disapprove. Strangely enough, rather than explaining why, you've got on your soap box and preached at us that we shouldn't. Fact is, though, that that is merely your unevidenced opinion and in fact we do, whether you like it or not. Would you care to try again?

James

No, you can have your religion. If it's working out for you, whatever. I'm not discussing anything else with you on this matter. Neither of you are paying attention. Dude above you is now making homosexual references (very mature) and is using Red Herring to divert everything I say to him. The entire exchange between him and I has fallen into him using Ad Hominem attacks.

I got better things to be doing with my time than debate with a man who can't even control his emotions. He can play his lawyer games with somebody else. Anybody who promises you the truth and asks you for money is trying to sell God to you. That is what all churches do. God needs 10% of your money? Uh huh.

 

[Hema]

Hinduism-
I noticed you mentioned Krishna. Krishna is an avatar of God. There are numerous names for God, however God is just one. God is even Allah, Christ, Buddha etc. Anyway, in Hinduism, one must realize that a person's true nature is Atman or Spirit - a spark of the Divine. We must see this Divinity in ourselves, in others, in all life forms and all of creation. We must love and respect that Divinity in all its manifestations. The body is only temporaray and God is the final destination.

 

[Jonathan Rex]

Hinduism-
I noticed you mentioned Krishna. Krishna is an avatar of God. There are numerous names for God, however God is just one. God is even Allah, Christ, Buddha etc. Anyway, in Hinduism, one must realize that a person's true nature is Atman or Spirit - a spark of the Divine. We must see this Divinity in ourselves, in others, in all life forms and all of creation. We must love and respect that Divinity in all its manifestations. The body is only temporaray and God is the final destination.

We (you and I) share the same faith.
Not Hindu, per se, but philosophically.

 

[James the Persian]

If my logic were circular, it would be no different than the Bible's claim to being the Word of God. How do you know the Bible is the Word of God? Because it says so.

Who says that I hold to such a Protestant notion. I don't. The Word of God was Incarnate as man, He's not the Bible. I know the Bible is inspired because the Church says so and the Church is jealously guarding the faith handed down to the Apostles and She is the pillatr and ground of the Truth. As these claims do not rely on the Bible being the word of God, but on Holy Tradition, much of which is oral, there is no circular logic.

However, I did provide the verse and neither of you have read it.

Matthew 6:5-16
It's clear as day. I'm not saying that it is an authority. That is the trap that this lawyer above you tried to set. He asked me to prove it using the Bible. So I did. That doesn't mean that I consider the New Testament to be an authority. It simply means that Yeshua says it in the book, "Go into your house, shut your door and pray."
How more clear can it get? Read Matthew 6:5-16.

I've read it, I simply don't agree with your interpretation of it and given that you are clearly unaware of the difference between prayer and worship (which fits in with your otherwise Protestant sounding attitude), I feel perfectly able to ignore your interpretations as flawed.

No, you can have your religion. If it's working out for you, whatever. I'm not discussing anything else with you on this matter. Neither of you are paying attention.

Disagreeing with you does not imply my not paying attention but merely that I don't think your argument stands up to scrutiny. In other words, it simply isn't very convincing.

Dude above you is now making homosexual references (very mature) and is using Red Herring to divert everything I say to him. The entire exchange between him and I has fallen into him using Ad Hominem attacks.

Whatever passes between you and him stays between you and him - it has absolutely nothing to do with me.

I got better things to be doing with my time than debate with a man who can't even control his emotions. He can play his lawyer games with somebody else. Anybody who promises you the truth and asks you for money is trying to sell God to you. That is what all churches do. God needs 10% of your money? Uh huh.

Really? I must tell my parish's (unpaid, I would note) priest as it seems we've forgotten to tithe. No, wait, the Orthodox Church doesn't ask for tithes does it? Honestly, you are so blinkered in your view of Christianity that you don't seem to even realise that all you can see are the Protestants.

James

 

[Jonathan Rex]

Who says that I hold to such a Protestant notion. I don't. The Word of God was Incarnate as man, He's not the Bible. I know the Bible is inspired because the Church says so and the Church is jealously guarding the faith handed down to the Apostles and She is the pillatr and ground of the Truth. As these claims do not rely on the Bible being the word of God, but on Holy Tradition, much of which is oral, there is no circular logic.

And how do you know that the Prophets were Prophets?
They said so? Circular logic (by your definition).
Your religion is based on circular logic. All religions are.
There is not a single religion that isn't based on circular logic.

I've read it, I simply don't agree with your interpretation

How is that left to interpretation? How many ways can you interpret, "Go into your room, shut your door and pray to God in private?"

of it and given that you are clearly unaware of the difference between prayer and worship

Can you read? Seriously?
What is your definition of prayer and worship?

(which fits in with your otherwise Protestant sounding attitude), I feel perfectly able to ignore your interpretations as flawed.

???

Interpretations? He says, "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen." He says that immediately after telling them not to pray in the synogogues in front of people like the Phairsees whom he calls Hypocrites. How many ways can that be interpreted. Give me another way that one could interpret this, please.

You do know that Martin Luther is the one who conjured up the freedom to Interpret scripture nonsense, right?

Disagreeing with you does not imply my not paying attention but merely that I don't think your argument stands up to scrutiny. In other words, it simply isn't very convincing.

Then don't believe it. Go your way then.
You have not provided another option.
You're just denying that it means exactly what it says.

Really? I must tell my parish's (unpaid, I would note) priest as it seems we've forgotten to tithe. No, wait, the Orthodox Church doesn't ask for tithes does it? Honestly, you are so blinkered in your view of Christianity that you don't seem to even realise that all you can see are the Protestants.

James

How do they maintain those fancy buildings? God drops money out of the clouds?

 

[Hema]

We (you and I) share the same faith.
Not Hindu, per se, but philosophically.

Cool!
Shri Satya Sai Baba says that there is one religion - the religion of love.