What is the European Union?

[ChristineM]

With all due respect...but...
Why do you never speak of those billionaires who have been stockpiling billions of euros through Banking Seigniorage, by devouring the honest Europeans' savings?

Why do you never speak of these leeches?


Social injustice is intolerable to me. It is really unbearable.


Honestly...I am tired of this Europe. Made up of awful creatures like dwarves, Dragons and similar

We are talking of the EU. Not your hated billionaire's

You have done nothing but speak of these "leaches" for months. I have explained my position and the business model, you choose to ignore them because... Who knows?, Your choice

I don't really care if you are so tired you have to call mocking names. Not my problem. You don't like it you are free to move somewhere else outside the EU

 

[Estro Felino]

We are talking of the EU. Not your hated billionaire's

You have done nothing but speak of these "leaches" for months. I have explained my position and the business model, you choose to ignore them because... Who knows?, Your choice

I don't really care if you are so tired you have to call mocking names. Not my problem. You don't like it you are free to move somewhere else outside the EU

I guess 6 countries will quit the Eurozone in a very near future.

 

[ChristineM]

I guess 6 countries will quit the Eurozone in a very near future.

Clairvoyance is a wonderful and so accurate too don't you think

An even if they do so what? They can choose to go 3rd world as the UK has done

 

[Augustus]

My country, the UK, is a lot worse than that.
It is a stooge for Russia,
It is run by a moneyed elite
If you've been to a private school, esp Eton, you are over 100 times likely to be an MP
European Union is far from perfect but much better than what we have out of it.

You can say similar things about just about any EU country. It's not like the EU is a highly democratic institution not run by normal people rather than monied elites and the upper classes.

If we want to deal in trite soundbites:

Germany is a "stooge for Russia" who actively blocked other countries providing defensive weapons to Ukraine and allowed things like Nordstream 2 funding Putin and blocked kicking Russia out of SWIFT.

France keeps voting the actual far right National Front (not centre-right Tories) into presidential runoffs and its institutional political corruption and nepotism are even worse than the Tories

Austria elected an actual neo-nazi as President

Hungry and Poland are run by Populist right-wing regimes that have massively eroded democracy

etc.

The post Brexit performative self-loathing of parts of the centre-left while eulogising the EU is nauseating. Farage gets a few % of the vote and people are weeping at how embarrassing it is and wishing we were more civilised like France while ignoring that the neo-fascists get 35%

 

[Augustus]

What you think the EU is. And what is supposed to be.

A schizophrenic organisation that can't work out between being a free-trade bloc and the 'ever closer union' of becoming a United States of Europe.

If it decides it would like to be the former it might survive largely intact, it will never become the latter and a half-way house will not last long-term.

A technocracy with a democratic deficit and centralising tendencies and is run by people who think they know best and who are not accountable in any way to an electorate will not survive multiple crises that long time scales guarantee.

 

[Altfish]

You can say similar things about just about any EU country. It's not like the EU is a highly democratic institution not run by normal people rather than monied elites and the upper classes.

If we want to deal in trite soundbites:

Germany is a "stooge for Russia" who actively blocked other countries providing defensive weapons to Ukraine and allowed things like Nordstream 2 funding Putin and blocked kicking Russia out of SWIFT.

France keeps voting the actual far right National Front (not centre-right Tories) into presidential runoffs and its institutional political corruption and nepotism are even worse than the Tories

Austria elected an actual neo-nazi as President

Hungry and Poland are run by Populist right-wing regimes that have massively eroded democracy

etc.

The post Brexit performative self-loathing of parts of the centre-left while eulogising the EU is nauseating. Farage gets a few % of the vote and people are weeping at how embarrassing it is and wishing we were more civilised like France while ignoring that the neo-fascists get 35%

Which other EU country can end up with a massive majority for a party that got less than 44% of the vote.?
Which other controlling EU party accepts so much money from Russia to fill its coffers?
Which other EU country commissioned a 'Russia Report' but when it saw the content refused to publish it?

 

[kaninchen]

An organisation that has been far too influenced by the obsessions of a member that has now left.

 

[Augustus]

Which other EU country can end up with a massive majority for a party that got less than 44% of the vote.?

There are arguments for and against FPP, but it certainly makes it harder for the far right to get into positions of power.

Maybe Britain could elect a Neo-nazi like the civilised Austrians or help them get 35% of the vote like with the civilised French

Then you could tell everyone how uniquely terrible Britain is and how it would never happen in the EU.

Which other controlling EU party accepts so much money from Russia to fill its coffers?

Gerhard Fritz Kurt Schröder (German: [ˈɡeːɐ̯haʁt fʁɪts kʊʁt ˈʃʁøːdɐ] ( listen); born 7 April 1944) is a German retired politician, consultant and lobbyist, who served as the chancellor of Germany from 1998 to 2005, during which his most important political initiative was Nord Stream. As Chancellor, he led a coalition government of his Social Democratic Party of Germany and the Alliance 90/The Greens. From 1999 to 2004 he was the Leader of the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD). Schröder has been chairman of Russian energy company Rosneft since 2017.

Imagine the degree of performative self-flagellation required if Boris had done this and then Britain had blocked defensive from being shipped to Ukraine and vetoed the SWIFT ban

Belgium just got an exemption on diamond exports to Russia for EU sanctions. Italy on designer goods (then vetoed the SWIFT ban).

Cyprus is a Russian money laundry who previously vetoed the SWIFT ban

Yes Britain has taken money from the Russians and turned a blind eye to its source, but so has most of the EU.

"Buuuut the Toriiiesss are Putin's puppets"

For a uniquely compromised nation of marionettes, the UK has done far more to help Ukraine than many of your noble EU paladins.

Which other EU country commissioned a 'Russia Report' but when it saw the content refused to publish it?

Which European country has suppressed embarrassing information? All of them.

 

[Augustus]

An organisation that has been far too influenced by the obsessions of a member that has now left.

Such as? What uniquely British obsessions were these?

 

[Kooky]

You can say similar things about just about any EU country. It's not like the EU is a highly democratic institution not run by normal people rather than monied elites and the upper classes.

Indeed, all states are bad and must be torn down.
Let us destroy all institutions and go back to self-sufficient farmer's communes, self-organized cities and factory-states run by working class unions and armed citizen militias.

 

[Estro Felino]

Germany is a "stooge for Russia" who actively blocked other countries providing defensive weapons to Ukraine and allowed things like Nordstream 2 funding Putin and blocked kicking Russia out of SWIFT.

Germany is pragmatic.
Since we are not independent, as for resources like natural gas, Germany was not disposed to pay Germans tens of billions of euros, so they could pay their gas bills, which would have risen by 50% or 70%.

Germans have to pay the rent too. You know....they are not millionaires.

As for us...we will demand the money from Draghi, if the bills rise by 50%.

 

[Estro Felino]

Indeed, all states are bad and must be torn down.
Let us destroy all institutions and go back to self-sufficient farmer's communes, self-organized cities and factory-states run by working class unions and armed citizen militias.

All States are good.
The problem is banking elites.

 

[Altfish]

Due to lack of time, I'm just going to answer the first part of your reply, if I remember, I'll come back and answer the rest later...

There are arguments for and against FPP, but it certainly makes it harder for the far right to get into positions of power.

Maybe Britain could elect a Neo-nazi like the civilised Austrians or help them get 35% of the vote like with the civilised French

Then you could tell everyone how uniquely terrible Britain is and how it would never happen in the EU.

I disagree, I would suggest that the UK currently has a far right government. UKIP, etc have vanished because the racists and xenophobes are having their wishes met by this government.
The main problem with FPP elections is that people get dissolutioned and don't vote. I live in a constituency that if you put a blue rossette on a donkey it would be elected. Even in Blair's landslide victory, our seat remained true Tory. We never have any 'big names' visiting us during the GE, they only visit marginal seats.

56% voted against the Tories and even if you factor in the likes of the DUP and UKIP there were more voting left of centre than right of centre at the last election,

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I ask this question to all Europeans.
Say whatever you like about the EU.
What you think the EU is. And what is supposed to be.

People taking the attitude that you do, would have been considered Quislings and traitors during WW2
and likely have been shot. Putin is clearly the enemy of western Europe and its allies.
A similar fate befalls people in Russia who oppose Putin.

 

[Estro Felino]

People taking the attitude that you do, would have been considered Quislings and traitors during WW2
and likely have been shot. Putin is clearly the enemy of western Europe and its allies.
A similar fate befalls people in Russia who oppose Putin.

I do love the EU.
But after chasing away the banking élites from it, I will love it even more.

 

[Augustus]

I disagree, I would suggest that the UK currently has a far right government. UKIP, etc have vanished because the racists and xenophobes are having their wishes met by this government.

On what rational policy based grounds are they "far right"? That's just hyperbole.

They are pretty standard centre-right. If you think they are far-right, take a look at the kind of parties that get elected or get double digit % of the votes in Europe.

That is the problem, much of the Centre-left massively exaggerates the things they dislike about British politics and completely ignores what happens in Europe in favour of some imaginary land of milk and honey.

It's basically the centre-left equivalent of the idealised fiction of the Little Englanders, except with self-loathing replacing self-aggrandisement.

The main problem with FPP elections is that people get dissolutioned and don't vote. I live in a constituency that if you put a blue rossette on a donkey it would be elected. Even in Blair's landslide victory, our seat remained true Tory. We never have any 'big names' visiting us during the GE, they only visit marginal seats.

56% voted against the Tories and even if you factor in the likes of the DUP and UKIP there were more voting left of centre than right of centre at the last election,

The support for PR seems to be based on an assumption that it will be good for the centre-left and promote reasonable politics (like the civilised Europeans of course), but a pure PR system (such as Party List) will likely mean:

a) You get more populism, more extremes, more demagoguery, etc. (see Europe for examples). It massively empowers people like Farage (and potentially those even worse)
b) These parties often end up holding the keys to power, and so make more extreme policies more likely to be adopted
c) You empower London even more (London becomes electorally more important than Scotland, Wales and NI combined) and the South East.
d) smaller towns and rural areas become largely insignificant electorally
e) You empower party leaders to force members to toe the line

There are certainly arguments in favour of both systems, but PR likely won't be the panacea you think it will be and it may well make things worse (in terms of creating the kind of political operations that you would like to see).

I certainly don't like the current system and would like to see major reform, but simply changing to PR is very unlikely to lead to significantly better outcomes imo.

 

[oldbadger]

I ask this question to all Europeans.
Say whatever you like about the EU.
What you think the EU is. And what is supposed to be.

Its something that we Brits no longer belong to.
There are Brits on RF who miss the EU badly, but not me.

 

[oldbadger]

Which other EU country can end up with a massive majority for a party that got less than 44% of the vote.?
Which other controlling EU party accepts so much money from Russia to fill its coffers?
Which other EU country commissioned a 'Russia Report' but when it saw the content refused to publish it?

So......which EU country would you like to move to?

 

[Martin]

What if Putin invades an EU country which isn't in NATO?

 

[Altfish]

On what rational policy based grounds are they "far right"? That's just hyperbole.

They are pretty standard centre-right. If you think they are far-right, take a look at the kind of parties that get elected or get double digit % of the votes in Europe.

That is the problem, much of the Centre-left massively exaggerates the things they dislike about British politics and completely ignores what happens in Europe in favour of some imaginary land of milk and honey.

It's basically the centre-left equivalent of the idealised fiction of the Little Englanders, except with self-loathing replacing self-aggrandisement.



The support for PR seems to be based on an assumption that it will be good for the centre-left and promote reasonable politics (like the civilised Europeans of course), but a pure PR system (such as Party List) will likely mean:

a) You get more populism, more extremes, more demagoguery, etc. (see Europe for examples). It massively empowers people like Farage (and potentially those even worse)
b) These parties often end up holding the keys to power, and so make more extreme policies more likely to be adopted
c) You empower London even more (London becomes electorally more important than Scotland, Wales and NI combined) and the South East.
d) smaller towns and rural areas become largely insignificant electorally
e) You empower party leaders to force members to toe the line

There are certainly arguments in favour of both systems, but PR likely won't be the panacea you think it will be and it may well make things worse (in terms of creating the kind of political operations that you would like to see).

I certainly don't like the current system and would like to see major reform, but simply changing to PR is very unlikely to lead to significantly better outcomes imo.

You have too much time on your hands, I am not going to be able to reply to these in the detail they deserve.

But, Johnson's government is far right because ...
1) It is trying to ban peaceful protest.
2) It lies with impunity and refuses to correct those lies even in Parliament.
3) It raises taxes on the less well off and poor
4) It is happy to starve children
5) it backs its backers by letting them pollute rivers
6) It plays the race card when it can, it won't even offer Ukranians refuge.
7) It refuses to publish reports
8) It is corrupt and won't reveal all the wasted money on Covid grants.


You get the picture