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Featured What is the case for anti paedobaptism?

Discussion in 'Theological Concepts' started by Sjruru, Apr 18, 2019.

  1. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Yes. I don't consider crying 'speech', as speech is usually understood.
     
  2. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    How about you just make your point?
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    When you have children you take responsibility for teaching them.. You don't cop out about "religious freedom".
     
  4. Shantanu

    Shantanu Well-Known Member

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    The parents or others react to the cries by for example sticking a milk bottle in the baby's mouth.
     
  5. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Yes, it's a communication, but does it have the grammar, lexicon, &c of adult speech?
     
  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    If you "control" a child by stopping them from touching a hot stove, you save them from a bad burn.

    If you control a child by forcing them into one particular religion, you "save" them from not being a member of that religion.

    I know the harm and cost of a bad burn. What's the harm and cost of not being a member of a particular religion?
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    "Forcing them into a particular religion"??? Really? In the US adults are free to change their religion or abandon religion altogether. Mine were raised Methodist.. One converted to Catholicism with our blessings. One is Presbyterian.. another is Episcopalian.

    Among my siblings one converted to Judaism. One is Episcopalian another is a Baptist.
     
  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Children too, supposedly. It's just that the parents are entrusted to be the stewards if their children's rights.

    Unfortunately, many parents abuse this stewardship by trying to impose their own preferences and prejudices on their children.
     
  9. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Do you also oppose teaching children about their culture and heritage?
     
  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Not quite the same thing, is it?

    Tell me if you can spot the difference:

    - "you can do folk dancing with your grandmother if you like."

    - "here are a set of things that we will require you to believe."
     
  11. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    I believe infant baptism completely defeats the purpose of any benefit that ritual could confer...

    I also think calling it paedobaptism is pointlessly inflammatory given the fact that the term "pedo" has evolved in usage to be a shortened form of the word "pedophile", and thus the invented term is a blatant attempt to associate pedophilia with infant baptism. Which is stupid. And it's not even linguistically accurate (which is the most annoying thing to me). Why use the Greek word for child and the English word for baptism!? If you insist on the childish inflammatory pedophile association by using "paedo" for "child" at least go all in on the Greek language and call it "paedovaptisma" or something!!

    But I digress. Overall there's plenty of good ways to argue against infant baptism without resorting to coming up with a deceptively scary sounding word to call it.

    I truly can't stand people who are on my side of a debate (regardless of the debate) yet feel the need to use dishonest debate tactics. You only hurt our side, you idiots!! If that's your idea of helping, just shut the heck up and leave the debate to competent actors!!
     
  12. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    I don't know; if someone really did believe that dunking or sprinkling a baby in water in a special way really did matter tonGod for its own sake, it certainly wouldn't be the most outlandish religious belief I'd ever heard of.
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Intellectually and morally, Mick nailed it.

    But in politics, where numbers are essential, such integrity, such offering of an informed choice, wasn't a winner ─ so infant baptism it is.
     
  14. Sanzbir

    Sanzbir Well-Known Member

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    Nah, it's certainly not.

    But I mean benefits in terms of the baptisee. Certainly any mental benefit one could obtain undergoing a symbolic cleansing ritual would be of more value when the person undergoing that ritual can understand what is happening.
     
  15. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member
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    "diabolical?"

    Well, no....but it does mean doing something to the child without his/her permission or choice to accept/reject it. I understand that Catholicism believes that it does something very permanent to the child's spirit. Something positive, but definitely permanent.

    For those who don't think that infant baptism is about anything but the parents, that's not a problem, I suppose.

    Personally, I think it is utterly unnecessary, since baptism is supposed to be for 'the remission of sins.' Whose sins? I don't believe in 'original sin,' and the baby hasn't had a chance to commit any. Babies are born utterly innocent of all sin and knowledge. Baptizing them is an exercise in annoying the baby. That's about it for what it does to/for the child. If the parents feel better, well, that's different.

    They are wrong, of course, but hey; we are all wrong about a great many things.
     
  16. iam1me

    iam1me Active Member

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    The baptism of infants/children has no spiritual meaning. Baptism is supposed to be a symbolic act of one's repentance. An infant neither has anything to repent of, nor the ability to repent. A child similarly lacks the necessary understanding of good and evil, sin and repentance. It is a farce to please the parents.
     
  17. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 4:2 New International Version (NIV)
    Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

    Is Infant Baptism allowed in the Bible?
    A lot of Churches have been baptizing their infant members in different manner



    But is it in conformity with the Bible?

    Acts 2:38 New International Version (NIV)
    Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    In the Bible, Peter said "Repent..."
    Can a baby repent?
    If the baby can't repent, then the baby shouldn't be baptized.

    Further where should a person receive baptism?
    Would it be from a church which removes or adds the commandments of God?
    Or modifying the teachings of God to introduce infant baptism?

    Mark 16:16 New International Version (NIV)
    Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    Jesus mentioned these words, Whoever believes and is baptized....
    Can a baby believe?
    If the baby can't believe, then why baptize?

     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    I see only 1 problem, people judging and criticizing belief of others. Let all worship if they see fit. Why judge and belittle another faith.
    For God's sake, we talk about faith, meaning "what you think about God", that is not a science. So there is no good or bad.
    There is freedom of religion. Criticizing the religion of others only means "those people don't understand the meaning of it"
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Michael Servetus called paedobaptism "...an invention of the devil, an infernal falsity for the destruction of all Christianity."

    I don't believe in original sin either, but its the basis of Jesus crucifixion … dying for our sins.

    Infant baptism is more a promise or a dedication.. The child is also introduced to the congregation. IMO its nothing to get exercised about.
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The Mikvah - Mikvah - Chabad
    www.chabad.org › … › Acts of TransformationMikvah
    Immersion in the mikvah has offered a gateway to purity ever since the creation of man. The Midrash relates that after being banished from Eden, Adam sat in a river that flowed from the garden. This was an integral part of his teshuvah (repentance) process, of his attempt at return to his original …

    (Ritual purification is nothing new. Why so keen to make the other guy wrong?)
     
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