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What is the "Big Lie"? What is the consequence of believing in it?

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
If I say, Don't eat that fruit, because if you do, you'll die the same day,
and you say, He said if I ate the fruit I'd die
and he says, No you won't,
then the conversation is about the first statement, and no lie is told.

Did Adam and Eve die the same day? No they didn't.

That leaves the question, did Yahweh tell a lie? There's not the slightest doubt that he misspoke; and if you think he never makes mistakes, then he lied.

All irrelevant mental gymnastics and spin.

The serpent lied. Here is the proof.

God telling the truth.

"You will die."
Is this a true or false statement? It is a true statement.
Because you will die. This is inevitable.

The serpent telling the lie.

"Surely you won't die."
Is this a true or false statement?
It is a false statement.
Because you will die. This is inevitable.

The statements above are irrefutable.

The only way to refute this truth is to prove that a person cannot die.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"You will die."
Is this a true or false statement?
It's true taken in isolation, BUT it's irrelevant because it's NOT the statement they're discussing in the story.

The statement they're discussing in the story is Yahweh's: "in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
"Surely you won't die."
Is this a true or false statement?
Since it refers to the statement, You will not die the day you eat of it, it's a true statement. They did not die the day they ate the fruit.

The serpent never suggests to Eve that the fruit will make her immortal. (That's a different tree.) He tells her (3:5) that it will let her know the difference between good and evil ─ and that's exactly what the story says happened.

So Yahweh, when he said that they'd die the day they ate the fruit, was either mistaken or lying.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Eating the fruit insured their death. They were exiled from the garden so that they could not reverse the curse by eating from the tree of Life. This is because the Word of God must come true because God is not a liar. (Numbers 23:19) However, God mercifully granted them physical death (for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.) instead of eternal death of the soul. (Matthew 10:28) So, that they could be received again through the resurrection. (Job 19:25-27) This is because unlike the angels who sinned (2 Peter 2:4); God wanted Adam and Eve to have another chance to be with Him forever.

If you eat this fruit you shall surely die....because I will kill you.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Since it refers to the statement, You will not die the day you eat of it, it's a true statement. They did not die the day they ate the fruit.

The serpent did not say "You will not die the day you eat the fruit". You are putting words in his mouth and misrepresenting the scripture with mental gymnastics.

He said "Surely you will not die" this statement is false.

The serpent lied. Here is the proof.

God telling the truth.

"You will die."
Is this a true or false statement? It is a true statement.
Because you will die. This is inevitable.

The serpent telling the lie.

"Surely you won't die."
Is this a true or false statement?
It is a false statement.
Because you will die. This is inevitable.

The statements above are irrefutable.

The only way to refute this truth is to prove that a person cannot die.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The serpent did not say "You will not die the day you eat the fruit". You are putting words in his mouth and misrepresenting the scripture with mental gymnastics.

He said "Surely you will not die" this statement is false.

The serpent lied. Here is the proof.

God telling the truth.

"You will die."
Is this a true or false statement? It is a true statement.
Because you will die. This is inevitable.

The serpent telling the lie.

"Surely you won't die."
Is this a true or false statement?
It is a false statement.
Because you will die. This is inevitable.

The statements above are irrefutable.

The only way to refute this truth is to prove that a person cannot die.

Did they die because of the fruit ?
Or did they die because they were expelled from Eden ?
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Did they die because of the fruit ?
Or did they die because they were expelled from Eden ?

The ate of the fruit which is what caused them to be expelled from Eden.

So yes they died because of partaking from the tree of knowledge.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
The ate of the fruit which is what caused them to be expelled from Eden.

So yes they died because of partaking from the tree of knowledge.

In other words: They didn't die because of the fruit. There was a willing agent that decided to cause their death.
Otherwise, wearing provocative clothing causes rapes.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
In other words: They didn't die because of the fruit. There was a willing agent that decided to cause their death.
Otherwise, wearing provocative clothing causes rapes.

Incorrect.

They only had 1 rule to follow to live in paradise forever. Do not eat of the tree of knowledge. They broke that rule. It's cause and effect simple as that. To refute this you would have to provide evidence God was going to expel them even if they never ate of the tree of knowledge.

It's not like rape. Rape involves a willing agent (the rapist) to rape to take an action (the rape) against the victims will. The rape occurred because the rapist willed it to happen, not because of the actions of the victim. There is no "rule" to break that cause you to be raped.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The serpent did not say "You will not die the day you eat the fruit". You are putting words in his mouth and misrepresenting the scripture with mental gymnastics.
You're trying to turn the story in a tale about eternal life, but it's not. If you disagree, show me where the serpent mentions eternal life.

The story is simple and obvious and about the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. You're so determined to make the snake a liar ─ the bible never suggests that he is, merely calling him 'subtle' ─ that you lose sight of what's in front of you.
God telling the truth.
No. And this is wholly independent of the question whether the serpent told the truth.

Yahweh says (2:17) "in the day that you eat of it [the fruit] you shall die".

And that didn't happen. So Yahweh was either mistaken or lying.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Incorrect.

They only had 1 rule to follow to live in paradise forever. Do not eat of the tree of knowledge. They broke that rule. It's cause and effect simple as that. To refute this you work have to provide evidence God was going to expel them even if they never ate of the tree of knowledge.

It's not like rape. Rape involves a willing agent (the rapist) to rape to take an action (the rape) against the victims will. The rape occurred because the rapist willed it to happen, not because of the actions of the victim. There is no "rule" to break that cause you to be raped.

Imagine there is a rapist called Joe.
Joe has a rule: If any woman wears provocative clothing he will rape her.
Jane decides to wear provocative clothing even though she was warned in advance about that.
Joe rapes Jane.

How does having a rule preclude Joe from being responsible for the rape ?
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Imagine there is a rapist called Joe.
Joe has a rule: If any woman wears provocative clothing he will rape her.

That would make him a serial rapist then, technically speaking.

Jane decides to wear provocative clothing even though she was warned in advance about that.
Joe rapes Jane.

That sucks for Jane. I offer my condolences.

How does having a rule preclude Joe from being able to rape.

Because if he had no "rule" he would not be a serial rapist. Thus Jane would not have been raped.

You would have to prove he was going to rape Jane regardless of her outfit.

So that being said:

To refute this you would have to provide evidence God was going to expel them even if they never ate of the tree of knowledge.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
That would make him a serial rapist then, technically speaking.



That sucks for Jane. I offer my condolences.



Because if he had no "rule" he would not be a serial rapist. Thus Jane would not have been raped.

You would have to prove he was going to rape Jane regardless of her outfit.

So that being said:

I don't understand your rationale here, can you elaborate ?
How does having a rule preclude Joe from being responsible for the rape ?
Explain as thoroughly as you can.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
You're trying to turn the story in a tale about eternal life, but it's not.

But it is unequivocally about eternal life.

Genesis 3:22

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Had they ate of the tree of life instead of the tree of knowledge they would have lived forever. As shown above in Gen 3:22.

Yahweh says (2:17) "in the day that you eat of it [the fruit] you shall die".

In that day they ate of the tree of knowledge they gained the ability to die. God told no lie, they would have lived eternally has they only ate of the tree of life.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
As the Genesis verse I quoted states, God didnt want them to have eternal life because “they are like us”. The fruit didn’t literally kill them, the serpent didn’t lie. God killed them by kicking them from the garden. If he wanted us still with him, then God didn’t need to kick humans from paradise in the first place just for “knowing good from evil”.
God can't go back on His promise if He said they would die then they had to die. This is why God gave them physical death instead of death of the eternal soul. Jesus taught not to fear physical death.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
He that only has half of the map is lost.

New American Standard Bible John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

Seriously, how many "believing" "Christians", that you know, have cheated death when their time came? I think you will find them still in their graves in the form of dust and ashes.

And Paul, as a "we", who shall be "changed" into "incorruptible, is dead and his body is dust somewhere outside of Rome. On the other hand, his demon spirit remains to "gather" all the "nations" to Har-Magedon (Revelation 13:16-19). One of the vessels, of his demon spirit, Obama, followed Trump on Trump's around the world tour with leaders. He talked to the world leaders after Trump left town. He still thinks he can wrestle power from Trump. Gore reassured one leader, that Trump would be gone within the year. "Hope" and "change" still remains their battle cry. The "mankind is stupid" (Jeremiah 51:17) followers, remain by Obama's side.
Paul ultimately taught the resurrection just as all the Pharisees of his day believed except he said it was through Jesus. Jesus is the resurrection. Paul only taught that those who were still alive when Jesus returned would never physically die. You're totally changing what Paul taught to make him look bad. The truth is he taught the same thing as Jesus about the resurrection and the second coming.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But it is unequivocally about eternal life.

Genesis 3:22

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
= Yes, I cited that verse to you earlier. But the episode with Eve and the serpent is NOT about eternal life. It's about knowing good and evil. The text is very plain.
In that day they ate of the tree of knowledge they gained the ability to die.
Absolute fantasy. The text says nothing even remotely resembling that.
God told no lie, they would have lived eternally has they only ate of the tree of life.
You conveniently overlook the words in the day that you eat of it you will die. For God to have told the truth, they would have had to die the same day. BUT they ate the fruit AND they didn't die the same day SO Yahweh was mistaken or lying.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
= Yes, I cited that verse to you earlier. But the episode with Eve and the serpent is NOT about eternal life. It's about knowing good and evil. The text is very plain.

It's about not obeying God and facing the consequences.

Absolute fantasy. The text says nothing even remotely resembling that.

Perhaps you should learn to read then?

Genesis 3:22

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Clearly states if they eat of the tree of life they will live forever. That is not fantasy or interpretation. It plainly says it right there in Gen 3:22.
 
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