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Featured What is the "Big Lie"? What is the consequence of believing in it?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 2ndpillar, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Although physical death occurred slowly, I think the scriptures show that the primary death God was referring to was spiritual death, the separation from an innocent, loving, trusting relationship they had with God. This happened immediately. Clearly, from the account the serpent definitely lied.
     
  2. idav

    idav Being
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    It’s not clear, what exactly did the serpent lie about? Is the serpent supposed to know god would curse them and itself be cursed? Immediate spiritual death how so? That is not a scriptural term. Besides, god kicked them out and cursed them and that was not immediate. In fact the scripts say they lived hundreds of years afterward. The spiritual death is definitely debateable, Paul clearly took the life death thing quite literally.
     
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  3. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    And what caused them to be expelled from Eden and to be able to die?
    Eating the fruit which God warned them not to.

    They had eternal life already. So long as they never ate of the tree of knowledge.

    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    God tells them the truth here. That they may freely eat of any tree, BUT the tree of knowledge. If you eat of the tree of knowledge you will surely die.

    Genesis 3

    1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    Here the serpent tells the lie in Genesis 3:4.

    This is clearly the case there is no other interpretation. Very basic stuff, to say otherwise is a lie in itself. The serpent is a liar, the father of all lies one might say, considering he told the first lie in the bible.
     
    #23 Enoch07, Feb 5, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  4. socharlie

    socharlie Active Member

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    physical body dies, astral body does not, nobody lied.
     
  5. idav

    idav Being
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    Lets look at those words for a minute. You will not surely die? There was no sure thing about it, only god has that power. They didn't die eating the fruit etc etc.
     
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  6. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    It's real easy.

    God says:

    Genesis 2:16-17

    16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Genesis 3:22

    22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    So it is established that they may eat of any tree. If they only ate of the tree of life they would have lived forever. But because they ate of the tree of knowledge, now they can die. So yes the serpent lied.

    The Serpents lie:

    Genesis 3:4

    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
     
  7. idav

    idav Being
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    Genesis 3
    2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
    3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”
     
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  8. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    You must not eat of the tree of knowledge or touch it, or you will die. Yes this is true. It's proven later because now that they have taken from it they are able to die. I don't see the issue here. It's plain as day.
     
  9. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    @idav if I say to you "You will die." Is this a true statement? Yes it is. Because you will die one day. But that does not mean you will die the exact moment I told you "You will die".

    If someone told you that I lied to you. That "Surely you won't die." Is this statement true or false? It is a false statement. Because you will die one day.

    The serpent lied, end of story.
     
  10. idav

    idav Being
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    So these naive kids were supposed to know God meant they would die hundreds of years later. Thats a deception also known as a lie. Serpent said they would become enlightened. That is not a lie. What God meant is he would kill them, and that was not "plain as day".

    Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

    Some might call that manslaughter.
     
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  11. idav

    idav Being
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    The story reads like its a poisoned fruit, which would be a lie, surely its misleading.
     
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  12. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Incorrect.

    God did not lie, see post #29.

    But, yes the serpent did tell the truth that they would gain enlightenment, but he lied about the part of it costing them their immortality.

    They were not naive or ignorant of the rules, they were well informed.

    Genesis 2:17

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Proof they knew the rules here:

    Eve speaking in Genesis 3:2-3

    2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    She knew the rules, and we know she knew the rules, because she explained the rules to the serpent in their conversation.
     
  13. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Nothing misleading about it. The only other thing God could have done was to take away their free will so that they had no choice of which tree to eat from.

    Which is the moral of the story to this point. You are free to do as you chose in this life. But there are consequences if you chose to do the wrong things. God warned us of the wrong things. So the only thing that is left is the consequences of our actions, of which we have already been well informed.
     
  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    In the Garden story in Genesis the snake speaks only the truth.

    And if you read it carefully, you'll notice that it never mentions sin, original sin, disobedience or the fall of man.

    And as for death entering the world as the result of sin, no such thing happens in the story. On the exact contrary, God is very specific about why he expelled Adam and Eve from the Garden: to prevent them from eating from the tree of life and living forever. No other reason.

    Which makes sense when you think about it. At the time Eve ate the fruit, she had no knowledge of good and evil, so it was impossible for her to form the intention to sin. And Adam was in the identical condition when he ate the fruit.
     
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  15. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    See post # 23 & # 29

    The serpent lied.
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    No, the serpent didn't lie at all. When he says, You will not die (3:4) he's responding to what Yahweh actually said, towit 'for in that day that you eat of it you shall die" (2:17); and that's the only thing that Eve can be referring to.

    And of course they didn't die the same day. They didn't die for a long time. But as 3:22 makes perfectly clear, they were always going to die in the long run.

    I again draw your attention to the total absence of any reference to sin, original sin, disobedience, the fall of man, death entering the world or any other reason for the expulsion from the Garden than that which Yahweh states in 3:22.

    All of that Fall stuff was wished on the story long long afterwards.
     
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  17. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Everything you said is Irrelevant.

    Because these 2 statements prove the serpent lied.

    If I say to you "You will die." Is this a true statement? Yes it is. Because you will die one day. But that does not mean you will die the exact moment I told you "You will die".

    If someone says that "Surely you won't die." Is this statement true or false? It is a false statement. Because you will die one day.

    The serpent lied, end of story
     
  18. TheBannerofHomuraAkemi

    TheBannerofHomuraAkemi Active Member

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    Jesus is talking about spiritual death and not physical death of the body.
    Mathew 10:28
    "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
    Revelations 2:11
    'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
    Yes all men will die and then they will be judge and if there names are not found in the book life they will die a second death
    Revelations21:08
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    Revelations 3:5
    'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
    So yes you would find them in their graves because the day of judgment is not upon us yet

    Yes because Trump is such a righteous warrior of God especially with the lying Proverbs 12:22 "The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in people who are trustworthy" and the Adultery Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." and the hate mongering 1st John 3:15 " Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him." Yup those are all things God loves. He sure does.
     
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  19. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    when was the First original Big Lie committed ?

    The First original Big Lie was not committed in Genesis 3:4.

    If you were to go throughout the
    old testament and the new testament

    You will find when the original First Big Lie was committed and it sure wasn't committed in Genesis 3:4.
     
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    If I say, Don't eat that fruit, because if you do, you'll die the same day,
    and you say, He said if I ate the fruit I'd die
    and he says, No you won't,
    then the conversation is about the first statement, and no lie is told.

    Did Adam and Eve die the same day? No they didn't.

    That leaves the question, did Yahweh tell a lie? There's not the slightest doubt that he misspoke; and if you think he never makes mistakes, then he lied.

    Simple as that.
     
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