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Featured What is the "Big Lie"? What is the consequence of believing in it?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 2ndpillar, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    What is the “big lie”?

    I am not talking about Hitler’s generic “big Lie”, which was to tell a big enough lie enough times, and people will believe you. I am referring to the original “big Lie” of the serpent (Genesis 3:4). The Lie was that if you broke God’s commandment, you “surely shall not die”. Of course everyone but Elijah, and Enoch, who did not break any commandments, all died. Now the story is that if you believe what the son of hell, Paul, preached, then you “surely shall not die”, but be changed in a “twinkling of an eye” and wind up singing on a cloud. Of course that is nonsense, but the lie is so big, and told so many times, it has “many” followers, and they are all headed to “destruction” (Matthew 7:13). “Everyone shall die for his own iniquities” (Jeremiah 31:30), there are no exceptions. You can believe any lie you want, but all will be judged according to their own deeds (Revelation 20:13). The only caveat is that as you judge others, so shall you be judged.
     
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  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It's Jesus/Yeshua who said;

    And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:26)

    So Paul's definitely right about that.
     
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  3. idav

    idav Being
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    The serpent didn’t lie, God did. As the story goes humans, Adam and Eve, did not die eating the fruit. They got cursed to eventually die by getting kicked out of Gods good graces.

    Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

    If you follow the New Testament it’s in that theology as well since Jesus supposedly died while being sinless.
     
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  4. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Eating the fruit insured their death. They were exiled from the garden so that they could not reverse the curse by eating from the tree of Life. This is because the Word of God must come true because God is not a liar. (Numbers 23:19) However, God mercifully granted them physical death (for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.) instead of eternal death of the soul. (Matthew 10:28) So, that they could be received again through the resurrection. (Job 19:25-27) This is because unlike the angels who sinned (2 Peter 2:4); God wanted Adam and Eve to have another chance to be with Him forever.
     
  5. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    John 3:13
    No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

    ...where did Enoch and Elijah go?
     
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  6. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    What's the Big Lie? I thought the Big Lie was that you can (become like God) and save yourself.
     
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I think what Jesus is saying is none ascend or descend by their own power. So Elijah clearly went up in a whirlwind. (2 Kings 2:11) As it says of Enoch he was not for "God took him". (So it was the power of God) The angels ascended and descended via a stairway as Jacob saw. (Genesis 28:12) So again they did not just come down or go up because they had wings or something. Instead, they ascended or descended the stairway. The stairway is symbolic of Christ Jesus. (John 1:51, John 14:6) Yet, Jesus comes and goes by His own power. (John 3:13) Which shows us He's not only the Son, but the Father also. (Proverbs 30:4)
     
  8. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    Ok, cool. :)
     
  9. idav

    idav Being
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    As the Genesis verse I quoted states, God didnt want them to have eternal life because “they are like us”. The fruit didn’t literally kill them, the serpent didn’t lie. God killed them by kicking them from the garden. If he wanted us still with him, then God didn’t need to kick humans from paradise in the first place just for “knowing good from evil”.
     
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  10. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    I thought God was being sarcastic? Point was man thought he was like God and could save himself. God proved man wrong by booting him from paradise. Wasn't that was the Big Lie?
     
  11. idav

    idav Being
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    It wasn’t a lie because god said, they became like us, whoever “us” was supposed to be. Many gods?

    The whole idea of the sacrifice of Jesus is to give us back what was taken from Adam and Eve in the garden, access to the tree of life.
    Revelations 1:1-2
    1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
     
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  12. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    Was Jesus the tree of life? Is the Eucharist symbolic of the tree of life? If so perhaps the tree of knowledge of good and evil wasn't literal?
     
  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The serpent does not say anything about commandments, so that is an inference about the story. Adam does not know good from evil yet, so eating the fruit is neither good nor bad to him. He only knows that he will die if he eats the fruit, yet he chooses to eat it. Its an apotheosis in which he becomes judge of right and wrong. Only after he eats the fruit does he know good from evil. Only then can he 'Taste and see that the LORD is good.' Before that his mind is ignorant, and he is unknowing.

    I say that Adam chose, because of a comment in the NT. Its a Christian point of view that Eve was decieved, but Adam was not and chose to eat the fruit knowing he would die. (I Timothy 2:13)
     
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  14. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I believe God certainly did and does want all to have eternal life, yet an eternal life based on goodness and in a relationship of trust of His love...not self-willed sin. It is this sin and willfulness which was cast out of the garden so that the consequences and suffering of sin will end in death rather than go on for eternity.

    According to the scriptures, it was disobeying God's direct instruction which caused death...And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (Genesis 2:16-17).

    The serpent did lie and say the exact opposite of God...Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:4-5)

    The tree of knowledge of good and evil was in the Garden of Eden to give Adam and Eve a choice to obey God or disobey Him.

    "There was nothing essentially evil about the tree or the fruit of the tree. It is unlikely that the fruit, in and of itself, gave Adam and Eve any further knowledge. That is, the physical fruit may have contained some vitamin C and some beneficial fiber, but it was not spiritually nutritious. However, the act of disobedience was spiritually deleterious. That sin opened Adam’s and Eve’s eyes to evil. For the first time, they knew what it was to be evil, to feel shame, and to want to hide from God. Their sin of disobeying God brought corruption into their lives and into the world. Eating the fruit, as an act of disobedience against God, was what gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of evil—and the knowledge of their nakedness (Genesis 3:6–7)."
    Why did God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden?
     
  15. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    I'll help you with this one, and avoid the primary post. Things are clearly stated, though as usual, we can always disagree. :)
    Many misunderstand what happened to Enoch, even Elijah, though his case is harder to demonstrate what happened.
    Let's begin by nailing things down with a scripture in Enoch's case:
    Heb 11
    5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God:

    Some take this to mean that Enoch didn't die; however, in the same chapter we are clearly told that he and the others mentioned did die!
    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. ​
    It then is necessary to ponder what it meant that he was 'translated' and didn't see death. The answer seems obvious. He was given an experience, a vision, that kept him occupied while God made him pass away in death - and thereby didn't experience his own death as is common for all others, except perhaps those in coma.

    Elijah as mentioned is a bit more difficult to demonstrate. But, I made a study of this. Here it is:
    On this page, I also mention Enoch, but scroll down to Elijah: link: Truth Seeker - Trivial Questions
     
  16. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    Paul mentions a man being caught up into the third heaven in Corinthians so Paul apparently subscribed to the concept of a tiered heaven which might have been more in alignment with the perceived divisions of the firmament at the time rather than the seven heavens. What are your thoughts on this and do you think this relates to Enoch and Elijah?
     
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    He that only has half of the map is lost.

    New American Standard Bible John 11:25
    Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

    Seriously, how many "believing" "Christians", that you know, have cheated death when their time came? I think you will find them still in their graves in the form of dust and ashes.

    And Paul, as a "we", who shall be "changed" into "incorruptible, is dead and his body is dust somewhere outside of Rome. On the other hand, his demon spirit remains to "gather" all the "nations" to Har-Magedon (Revelation 13:16-18). One of the vessels, of his demon spirit, Obama, followed Trump on Trump's around the world tour with leaders. He talked to the world leaders after Trump left town. He still thinks he can wrestle power from Trump. Gore reassured one leader, that Trump would be gone within the year. "Hope" and "change" still remains their battle cry. The "mankind is stupid" (Jeremiah 51:17) followers, remain by Obama's side.
     
    #17 2ndpillar, Feb 5, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
  18. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Wow. That's a very interesting subject that I have devoted some time to. It has led me to a startling revelation, whether others will agree or not.

    Not many think to look for other inhabited worlds (planets) in the Bible, but this subject took me there:
    Please look at this short study:
    link: Other inhabited worlds, planets

    Let me know what you think.
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    As Elijah came back as John the Baptist, it is kind of doubtful he wasn't hanging around (Matthew 11:14).

    Matthew 11:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    14 And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.
     
  20. idav

    idav Being
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    I don’t see any of what the serpent said as a lie. One would have to assume serpent knew the kids would get kicked out of the garden but even then that’s pushing it. If god wanted to be honest he should not say “don’t eat the fruit or you will die.” More honesty god could have said “don’t eat the fruit or I will slowly kill you”.
     
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