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Featured What is the baptism by fire? (Matthew 3:11)

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by 2ndpillar, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I completely disagree. You are again confusing Christendom with Christianity. "Grace" is something promoted by Christendom, but Jesus showed us exactly what it meant. It wasn't a license to sin.
     
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  2. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    You asked a question. I provided an answer. If you knew the answer (you see), why did you ask the question?

    I've said enough. Go "your" way. I'll go mine.
     
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  3. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. The Jews knew sin, but not how to overcome it. That knowledge (gnosis) came by Jesus through the Holy Spirit.

    John 7:
    (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Spirit is capitalized=Holy Spirit

    The Jews didn't have it. It hadn't been given. Yet people go looking for it in the OT. This is the orthodox path. And why there are 1000 different divisions of it. The author of confusion is alive and well in the Bible.

    No wonder the spiritually ignorant Jews had what little they knew taken from them and given to the Gentiles.

    The Jews did not understand the parable of the talents (Matthew 25) and what little they had were taken from them and given to all nations. And they continue following ignorance even today, and die.

    It's right before us, and many don't see it.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Exactly....the law was "to make sins manifest" (Galatians 3:19)...to show them that an imperfect people could not keep a perfect law. Their sacrifices provided temporary forgiveness of their sins week to week. Jesus died so that sins could be forgiven permanently with one perfect sacrifice for all time.

    We might have a different view of the holy spirit but we agree that it was to be given only after Christ had completed his mission. He told his disciples to wait in Jerusalem and he would baptize them with holy spirit.

    I do not like the term "Holy Ghost" as it is not in scripture. There are no "ghosts" in the Bible. It gives the wrong impression of what God's spirit actually is. It "fills" people and can endow them with miraculous powers. It is not portrayed in the Bible as person, but the means by which God expresses his power. I do not see God broken up into three separate entities who can all be in different places at the same time. I do not believe that is the way God is spoken of in scripture at all. The Jews did not worship a triune god. Jesus was a Jew and he never once claimed to be God. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

    The anointing of Jesus' disciples was a token in advance of their heavenly calling. Apart from giving them miraculous abilities, it reserved a place for them as rulers and priests in God's kingdom....and it guaranteed them a "first resurrection". (Revelation 20:6) Not all Christians will go to heaven.

    This is what the Jews as a nation missed out on...gaining a place in God's kingdom. Though the first Christians were all Jews, fulfilling God's promise to Abraham, the majority rejected Jesus as Messiah.

    The' author of confusion' is the ruler of this world (1 John 5:19) and he has an empire that is designed to give him the worship he craves.....but not for much longer. He can blind people to the truth.....but only the "unbelievers" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) or those who have their own view of things and cannot be swayed from it. (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12)

    The parables fell largely on deaf ears. And it is sad to see Jews who believe that they are so devout in following the traditions handed down to them by their forefathers, but still cannot see when their Messiah will ever come. Jesus' words in Matthew 23:37-39 ring true. It must be disheartening all the same.

    None so blind apparently. :( But this kind of blindness has been around since the garden of Eden. It all began with someone thinking that they were entitled to more than they deserved. I still see it today...people believe that they are going to heaven without doing a single thing to be chosen for that privilege. Christendom is responsible for that lie. Heaven was never in God's plan for humankind in the first place....it became necessary only after their fall and banishment from paradise. If humans had simply obeyed that one law, no one would ever have gone to heaven and Jesus would never have had to come to the earth to bail us out. Not many people ever think about that. God's first purpose was to have a perfect race of human caretakers of this planet who would represent him and reflect his loving qualities in caring for the earth, its living things and most importantly, each other. We lost that....but I believe that Jesus came to get it back for us.
     
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  5. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Good post, and well received.

    We are very close in our views, and I don't ask much more.

    Gnosis teaches us not to get caught up in (mens) words. Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost. Try seeing it this way.

    John 14:17
    Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    I
    John 15:26
    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 16:13
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak ofhimself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    What made Jesus the Christ was the Chrism. The correct thinking is that Jesus said he was the truth because the Spirit of truth was within him. See it as Spirit (capital S) filling "spirit" of man. Ghost, comforter, Spirit, it means the same thing, though men and translations may defer our thoughts.

    The big picture becomes clear when gnosis is once again returned to the Gospel.

    These two verses say the same thing. But men with an agenda changed them.

    (39) Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."

    (52)Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

    The veil was eliminated by Jesus giving us the knowledge we needed. But those wishing authority repaired the veil once again. You must go beyond this veil to see all truth once again. Gnosis (which the church fathers attacked) IS that knowledge. Men have shown it as something to fear. And people follow what (those) men say. They are not free (in the Spirit). They want the authority the Jews (Pharisee's) had. Yet the Jews died (Christs words).

    Just my opinion.
     
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  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Of course you disagree. Paul is your teacher (Matthew 23:8). Paul, like his father, the dragon, says “you surely shall not die”(Genesis 3:4), but we will be transformed in a twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:51). Of course, Paul is dead, and his prophecy about “we” was of course false. You apparently think that the “Law came so that transgression would increase”. Is that why the Law came? And what is “grace”? And what is sin?

    As for your “Christendom”, one part, the Roman church follows Peter as their “leader”, and the other, the Protestants, follow Paul as their leader and teacher (Matthew 23:8-10). Both are on the “broad” “way” to “destruction”.


    New American Standard Bible Romans 5:20
    The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,


    1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed
     
  7. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    The verses above, John 14, 15 and 16 as quoted are all about Baha'u'llah, who is the Spirit of Truth.

    Regards Tony
     
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    That is the false gospel of grace. Yeshua's gospel was the "good seed", "word of the kingdom" (Matthew 13:19) & (Isaiah 28:16-18), which is built on "a tested stone" using "justice as the measuring line", and "righteousness as the level". Paul's "covenant with death shall be cancelled" (Isaiah 28:16-18). "Every one will die for their own iniquity" (Jeremiah 31:30). If one turns from righteousness to wickedness, that person will surely die (Ezekiel 18:26). The "word of the kingdom" states that the "fellow slave" will be "cut" in "pieces" and assigned a place with the "hypocrites". Apparently the fellow slave wasn't "permanently" "forgiven". All are judged according to their deeds (Revelation 20:13), not some false believe system propegated by the false prophet Paul.
     
  9. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word "Chrism" that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because of the word "baptism". And it is because of the chrism that "the Christ" has his name. For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us. He who has been anointed possesses everything. He possesses the resurrection, the light, the cross, the Holy Spirit. The Father gave him this in the bridal chamber; he merely accepted (the gift). The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.- Gospel of Philip

    It is the Holy Spirit that makes us "one". Which is why our Father gave her to us. We cannot know (Christ) without it. It creates christ (within us).
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "Messiah" means the anointed one. All the kings, judges, and prophets of God were considered anointed. They were all "anointed" with the Spirit of God. As for another one of your posts, Abraham kept all of God's laws and commandments. (Genesis 26:5)
     
  11. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    My response: Such nonsense. And when was the Holy Spirit deemed a “her”. And when were you anointed, and by whom? If you answer, “ by way of the self professed apostle Paul”, the "false prophet", well sorry, but he is dead, and his demon spirit (Revelation 16:13-19) is at this time gathering the nations to the valley of judgment. The only anointing he is capable of passing to you would be one of his demon spirit brothers.

    As for you “Chrism” that is called myrrh, myron, holy anointing oil, and consecrated oil. The connection is that the Messiah means the anointed one, but in the real sense, the baptism of the Spirit. “Baptism is simply the sign of the cleansing of the sin after confessing one’s sins, and repenting. The anointing of Yeshua followed his baptism (Matthew 3:15-16) to “fulfill all righteousness”. As Yeshua taught, one must “first” seek “His righteousness” and “His kingdom. (Matthew 6:33)
     
    #51 2ndpillar, Jan 27, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
  12. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    I thought we concluded our debate. But I will defend my words.

    Jesus spoke Aramaic. In Aramaic spirit is "her" not "he". Translation to Greek and Latin redefine. It's not male and female as you see with eyes. The Spirit takes on role as "nurturer" or "mother". You don't have to see my words, but if you continue seeking instead of the box of walls you appear to remain stuck in, the Spirit will reveal it to you as well.

    As far as anointing, you see the flesh anointing and not the spirit. There is no myrrh or oil in spirit. Move pass the parables of flesh, or your going to see fleshly things If Jesus said that "the flesh profits nothing" then where is the "profit" of myrrh, oil or even water and fire?

    You are perplexed as the Jews were who though that they had to reenter the womb and eat the flesh of Jesus.

    The flesh thinkers honor the flesh, in things like circumcision, diets, chambers (confessionals, buildings of beauty to the eye, statues, crosses, etc.) and they dress the flesh with glittering robes, jewelry and head pieces.

    The sword Jesus brought divided flesh from spirit. Mammon from God. Unless you understand this division, the flesh will beacon and the eyes and ears of flesh will distort the mind.

    John 6:
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    And here I thought you said in a previous post "and the apostles anointed us." And of course, I was under the impression that the apostles were "flesh". Shame on me. And who "anointed" you? As for as the Jews, it is the Roman Catholics, the mother church, who think you have eat the "flesh of Jesus". As for the "flesh thinkers", it was Abraham, the father of nations, who was given the covenant of Circumcision , as an everlasting sign between him and God. . As for the sharp double edge sword that comes from the mouth (Revelation 19:21), that is for "killing" "the rest". Try taking an enema, it might help. It would be interesting to know your background.
     
  14. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    The chain of anointing is the knowledge obtained of it, to know it. It wasn't delivered by touch (as catholics taught) but by revelation. The flesh, again, profits nothing.

    Abraham died. Go follow him if you wish.

    The sword Jesus spoke of was division of flesh (understanding) from spirit (understanding). Born of flesh, reborn into spirit. Matthew 33-35

    Saying I am full of s**t is what I expect from spiritually ignorant people like yourself. It comes from your God.

    I am a Christian who seeks the knowledge of Christ, given by the Spirit, wherever it exists. My journey has been decades long and in many places. My rewards, beyond expectation.

    (2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."- Gospel of Thomas

    I don't simply "seek and find" as the orthodox. And I don't simply seek just in the Bible.

    Knowledge is a big picture, unable to be contained in any book.

    John:
    25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    As Abraham is a friend of God forever, that kind of puts in him a place of honor. Abraham followed all of God’s commandments, statutes, and My laws (Genesis 26:5) How about yourself?

    New American Standard Bible 2 chronicles 20:7
    "Did You not, O our God, drive out the inhabitants of this land before Your people Israel and give it to the descendants of Abraham Your friend forever?

    New American Standard Bible Genesis 26:5
    because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws."
    .

    As for division, that was the cross one must bear, not the sword. (Matthew 10:35-38)

    Matthew 10:35-38 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

    37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

    Your gospels of Thomas and Philip are strange indeed. When one finds the “kingdom of heaven”, he does not become troubled, nor does he rule over all. Yeshua taught his apostles to be servants to all.

    Matthew 20:26-28New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His a]' data-fn="#fen-NASB-23821a">[a]life a ransom for many.”

    As for you claiming to be “Christian”, that would put you in the realm of being a follower of the false prophet Paul, whose message was antithetical to the gospel of the kingdom of heaven. The “kingdom of heaven”, is with regards to the “wicked”, those without fruits, being harvested “first”, and thrown into the “fire” (Matthew 13:30). The gospel of your leader, and teacher Paul, is about being saved by calling on the Lord, which according to Yeshua, doesn’t make the grade (Matthew 7:22). The lawless (Romans 7:6) are met with the words “I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23).

    As for your “anointing”, apparently by the “revelation”, seems a little bit dubious, as you had previously stated it came from the apostles. Maybe you should regroup, and get your story ironed out.
     
  16. Phantasman

    Phantasman Well-Known Member

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    Your views hold nothing. Abraham never knew what Christ meant, yet use the word. You are anti-Pauline which is what the Jews were as they hated him as well. You don't even understand what the All (capital A) references, confusing it with "all". Using the NASB rather than the words it is translated from confuses you as well. Abraham starts in Genesis, written by Moses. What did Jesus say of what Moses wrote?

    John 6:
    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

    Abraham didn't get his knowledge from heaven either:

    John 8:
    But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    I show you Gospel over and over. Jesus said to teach the Gospel. Yet you don't follow the Gospel or see it. Like the Jews, you see the Torah. Jesus never said to teach the Torah, did he? And Paul left the teachings of Torah for Christ.

    Your path is quite clear to me. I have been on that path and it leads nowhere near the truth I now see.

    John 8 clarifies my views. And I understand why Jesus said:
    "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."

    I can do no more but pray you eventually see it.
     
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