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Featured What Is 'Real?'

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by SalixIncendium, Jul 13, 2020.

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  1. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Sākṣī
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    In another (non-debate) thread, it was asked what 'real' is. A response to that question was the Google dictionary definition, "actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed."

    How can one be certain something is real given that definition? I'm fairly certain nearly everyone has had dreams that, while dreaming, they thought were real until they awoke.

    What one perceives is merely a model resulting from sense organs that create electrical signals as interpreted by the brain. How can one trust that these are, indeed, real? How do you know you won't wake up from this reality into a 'real' one?
     
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  2. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    You called! ;)

    I will admit the following as per "trigger words". I am in some contexts triggered by the word "real".
    Now I started out learning about the world as not just living in as an atheist, naturalist and skeptic. In process of that I were told that it was possible to have beliefs about the worlds as such, which were with strong evidence, logic, proof and/or what not. I check it out and found out it is not the case.
    So in the process I became religious, without any strong belief about what the world really is and remained a skeptic.

    In effect it connects to the question of preaching/proselytizing. Some non-religious people do that in effect with their subjective beliefs about real and all the rest as it amours to their authoritative beliefs about what really matters objectively and as better for all of us. In effect we always end in normative ethics in practice. I.e. how we all should behave!
     
  3. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
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    You are perceiving something thereby you at least are real. The fact that things exist in your perceptions indicates something else is real. After that it is all subjective. Subjective does not mean reality doesn't exist just that it is subjectively defined, perhaps a problem for those that use word definitions as fact.
     
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  4. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Sākṣī
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    Things exist in my perceptions in my dream state. Are these real?
     
  5. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Take 2:
    Sometimes when checking a word and even some of the scientists on this site use philosophy sites on the Internet to do that, so if you dig deep and check words like "real, existence, truth, evidence, logic, objective" and so on, you will find if you subjectively accept it, that all the words have a irreducible subjective element and it pops up everywhere.
    Here is an example: Objective as "having reality independently of the mind". Now try for that one and all the other versions of what the world really is to reduce away the mind and all other instances of subjectivity and you can't in effect.
    What some people do, is to subjectively deny the relevance of subjectivity and declare that all they do, is objective.
     
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  6. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    A human can be in many states: a)Waking + b)Dreaming + c)Deep Sleep + d)Meditation + e)Samadhi + f)Turyia +...

    I have had dreams that came true, so I am quite certain that quite a few others have experienced that too

    The enlightened one "knows" that waking state is not real, nor is the dream state, nor is the Deep Sleep
    The worldly one "thinks he knows" that only the waking state is real, and the others are unreal

    How you perceive reality has to do with the state you are in. The more enlightened you are the more you see "real" for what it really is
     
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  7. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    I use the western tradition and I won't speak for other traditions, but we are playing the game of something in itself. The objective part of real as "das Ding in sich" is knowable in the abstract as in effect not me, but because all you can say, do, know and so on includes you, then all you can say about reality as independent of you, is that it is not you.

    In practice what we all do individually is to have beliefs about not "I", which apparently work for not "I", but the standard for checking that, is with "I". Sorry for "butchering" Immanuel Kant.
     
  8. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yes, to you and that is all real is, it is real to you.
     
  9. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    You are asking very tough questions these days, Salix. :)
    Your perception? Are you in control of your dream? I do not think it is your perception. It is your mind's/brain/s game over which you have no control. Mind/brain puts on its memory defrag machine on, and that makes your dream. It is a daily occurrence. It is necessary for the health of your brain/mind. Deprived of this, the mind/brain will break down.
     
    #9 Aupmanyav, Jul 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
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  10. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Sākṣī
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    What can I say? I like evoking thought. ;)
     
  11. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Here is a Danish example of real in usage.
    You know of a pond; i.e. a small body of water, right? That is real? Now imagine a pond. An imagined pond is not real, but it is real that you can imagine a pond. In this imagined pond are 2 ducks, a real duck and a decoy duck. The decoy duck is not a real duck, but it is a real decoy duck.

    In effect real is really relative depending on the context.
     
  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    It is a good point, Mikkel. At least my world view does not deny the subjective world, though it puts that is a special category.
     
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  13. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Dreams, imagination etc can be perceived to be real by the dreamer but no other observer. As understand it reality is observable, measurable by anyone with the will to investigate.

    Eg, i imagine throwing a vase across the room, no one else is privy to my imagination. Or i physically do throw a vase across the room. Anyone else in the room can observe that.
     
  14. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    And the real duck likes the decoy duck and they go for it which results into twelve beautiful ducklings. It is after all, my imagination. That is what we term as 'maya', illusion. We live in such dreams all the time. :D

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    And what is behind your example is that you use thinking subjectively to compare examples of human behavior and then based on your subjective thinking, which is not objective, declare the objective "real" because it subjectively works for you.
    That you then deny subjectively that this is relevant, doesn't mean that it is not objective. It just means that you in effect subjectively use your subjectivity to deny subjectivity.
    That is the same in general terms what some religious people do. The specifics are different, but the process is the same.
     
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  16. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    You're looking for a metaphysical answer, I assume. A standard dictionary will give you only colloquial definitions.

    Consider multiple realities, at different levels. Say, stage 1,2,3,4, &c realities. E.g: dream state is subjectively real while you're in it, but, as it's not consistent with known physics, it's not objectively real.
    If your consciousness switches to waking state you're experiencing a different, but still very limited reality; another subjective reality.
    And so it goes, with consciousness 'expanding' at each stage and becoming more consistent with the objective reality.
     
  17. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    No, what is behind my example is observation and measurement and not your wild attemps at trying to dis me using made up nonsence.

    I do not deny subjectivity to dont play you silly games, i consider subjectivity and objectivity as per their relevant definitions.
     
  18. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    So is subjectivity a part of the world, the universe, reality, everything or what ever you believe in? And how does work?
     
  19. night912

    night912 Active Member

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    Are those real ducks, real decoy ducks or half real ducks and half decoy ducks? Hybrids? Just want to see how much real imagination you have. :D
     
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  20. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    You seem to have a better imagination than me. :D
     
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