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Featured What is presented in standard Bibles, as the Biblical law, how it pertains to Christians.

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Desert Snake, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Note, the Blessed Apostle Paul, does not actually say Abraham, he writes, Abram.

    [Translated into Abraham, contextually, for some reason.
     
  2. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Is the Apostle Paul, unaware, of the standard teaching, that Abraham, [Abram, was instructed to circumcise, via the Covenant?


    It sure seems like it.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I have a feeling that you already know 1st Cor. 15:29 is in connection to Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12.
    Which has Nothing to do with being baptised for a person who has already died.
    No living person can repent and dedicate for a dead person because the person himself before his death would have to make that dedication and public baptism as Jesus' living followers did.

    I find the Bible teaches about two (2) resurrection types.
    Those who died before Jesus died (John 3:13) can only have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection to live life on Earth.
    Those, like the ones who Jesus made a contract with at Luke 22:28-30, are the ones called to heavenly life.
    They are the ones who have that first or earlier resurrection to heaven as per Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10.
    The rest of mankind could be part of a future or later resurrection as mentioned at Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
    Please notice that in that verse the ' future tense ' is used because it says there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....'
    So, those called to heaven will Not have to stay 'asleep in death' as the rest do at that coming time of 1 Corinthians 15:20; 1 Corinthians 15:23. Please notice the time frame for those ' first fruits ', those of Revelation 20:6.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find there was a New Covenant set up for everyone (both Jew and Non-Jew) at the time of -> Luke 22:20.
    The end was about to come - Romans 10:4 - for the natural-born Israelites.
    That Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant between God and Jesus and Jesus' chosen followers.
    Natural Israel was hopelessly divided both religiously and socially to the point of bringing reproach on God.
    - John 7:45-49; Acts of the Apostles 23:6-9.
    Since that old nation was out of harmony with Scripture Jesus wanted his followers to be united in worship.
    Jesus thus offers that beautiful Lord's prayer found at John 17:1-26 in harmony with the appointment Jesus made with those of Luke 22:28-30 to be part of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 to reign in Heaven with Jesus over Earth, or over earthly subjects or citizens of God's kingdom governing over Earth - Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14.

    Jesus will fulfill God's promise to father Abraham ( Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 ) that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with healing benefits through Jesus as mentioned at Revelation 22:2. That is why we are ALL invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    If Paul was un-aware then how does one explain Paul's words at Philippians 3:5
     
  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Paul was Jewish, hence customary [Mosaic law, or even 'added law', per The Book of Galatians, thusly, that would be expected.

    The Apostle Paul equates circumcision, to the law, not the Covenant of Faith, [the Covenant unto Gentiles, as called.

    Why would the Apostle Paul equate, circumcision, to the law, if, he believed, that circumcision was part of, the Covenant of Faith[Abraham.[same covenant unto the Gentiles, or Christians.

    Paul differentiates these two, in no vague manner. As noted.
     
    #66 Desert Snake, Sep 29, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  7. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Romans 4:9-10
    The reason why Abram[ Abraham, here,is associated with 'faith', is because of

    Uncircumcision.



    Abram, justified by faith, as the Gentiles, through 'uncircumcision'.

    The Apostle Paul, is literally, equating, uncircumcision, to Abram, and thusly the Covenant[of Faith.[same Covenant unto the Gentiles.

    The Apostle Paul, equates the ☆Abrahamic Covenant, the Covenant to Abram, with uncircumcision[noncircumcision.


    rather Abram, as to name
     
    #67 Desert Snake, Sep 29, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  8. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The time frame for Revelation 20:6 is predicated by "will reign for a thousand years", which makes it at the beginning of the millennium. The 2nd resurrection is for the great white judgment, which is 1000 years later. The other part of your twisted discourse doesn't address why Paul, or his followers, the Mormons, get baptized for the dead.
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    If you'd like an explanation of why Mormons baptize for the dead, here it is.
     
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your reference. Although the thoughts of the other poster were more interesting. The problem is that Yeshua was to baptize in the Holy Spirit and fire (Matthew 3:11), and be the source of living water (John 4:14).

    John 4:14
    But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life."
     
  11. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member

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    Which collection of stories is the "standard" bible?
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, that's certainly one interpretation. Many Christians, however, believe that the baptism referred to in the Bible as "John's Baptism," or baptism for the remission of sins. It was the baptism by water that Jesus Christ himself received, even though He was completely without sin, but did to "fulfill all righteousness," and that He commanded us to receive. Baptism of the spirit follows, as described in the 19th chapter of Acts, and is received by the laying on of hands.
     
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I am thinking that "many" (Matthew 7:13) who are baptized do not receive of the Spirit, or the Spirit quickly leaves due to unclean living conditions. The "brood of vipers" repented, confessed their sins, and were baptized, yet were told to produce "good fruit" or prepare to be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:7 &10). What warrantee does your church give you regarding you baptism and laying on of hands. Do the Latter Day Saints give the same warrantee, and is it any good?
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'd have to say that when we are confirmed and receive the Holy Ghost, there is a promise that He (i.e. the Holy Ghost) will be a "constant companion" as long as the individual is striving to be living in such a way that he or she is worthy of His presence. In other words, we must "endure to the end," which essentially means doing our best to keep God's commandments at all times, remembering Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on our behalf and continuing to repent each and every time we fall short of being the kind of person God has given us the potential to be. We see the Holy Ghost as providing the strength for us to do that, but it's not an automatic thing. It requires effort and commitment on the individual's part.
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    And what commandments do you keep? The 10 Commandments of God, or the commandments of the beast with two horns like a lamb (Constantine)? In what way do those you are baptized for supposedly keep the commandment?


    Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter, Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon, came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)


    On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,
    [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity



    "In addition, if any writing composed by Arius should be found, it should be handed over to the flames, so that not only will the wickedness of his teaching be obliterated, but nothing will be left even to remind anyone of him. And I hereby make a public order, that if someone should be discovered to have hidden a writing composed by Arius, and not to have immediately brought it forward and destroyed it by fire, his penalty shall be death. As soon as he is discovered in this offence, he shall be submitted for capital punishment....."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism


    — Edict by Emperor Constantine against the Arians
    [8]
     
  16. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Nothing Constantine said has any bearing on us. We do our best to keep all of God's commandments, though. Those we are baptized for can still feel remorse for their sins; they can still repent of them and realize that without Jesus Christ's Atonement, they will remain forever separated from God. We believe that spirits remain cognizant after death, so they can certainly at least learn to control their negative thoughts and desires after they receive the baptism we do for them.
     
    #76 Katzpur, Sep 30, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The Commandments Yeshua kept, those of the Law and the testimonies, included to not have graven images, have false gods before me, to not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, and to keep the Sabbath. I don't know, it seems that Constantine's Nicene Council introduced a trio of gods, and included worshipping the goddess Astarte on her holy day of Easter. His decree of 321 AD required the keeping of the day of his sun god, Sol Invictus, on the day of the sun, Sunday, as a day of rest. It also seems to me that your temple in Salt Lake has a graven image located on the top. It also appears that you get your 367 AD NT canon from the Roman church, which Constantine instituted at his convened Council of Nicaea.

    Constantine's law of…321 [C.E] uniting Christians and pagans in the observance of the "venerable day of the sun" It is to be noted that this official solar worship, the final form of paganism in the empire…, was not the traditional Roman-Greek religion of Jupiter, Apollo, Venus, and the other Olympian deities. It was a product of the mingling Hellenistic-Oriental elements, exemplified in Aurelian's establishment of Eastern Sun worship at Rome as the official religion of the empire, and in his new temple enshrining Syrian statutes statues of Bel and the sun…. Thus at last Bel, the god of Babylon, came into the official imperial temple of Rome, the center of the imperial religion. It was this late Roman-Oriental worship of one supreme god, symbolized by the sun and absorbing lesser divinities as subordinates or manifestations of the universal deity, that competed with young Christianity. This was the Roman religion that went down in defeat but infiltrated and colored the victorious church with its own elements, some of which can be seen to this day. (Cramer 4)


    On March 7, 321, Sunday was declared the official day of rest, on which markets were banned and public offices were closed,
    [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity
     
  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Apparently, you see religious artwork (sculpture, in particular) as a "graven image." I've seen a lot of beautiful religious sculpture in my life, including the beautiful reproduction of Danish sculptor Bertel Thorvaldsen’s "Christus" which is in one of the visitors' centers on Temple Square. I can't imagine that God would object to such magnificent and moving artwork, but if you feel otherwise, I respect your right to do so. As a Mormon, I don't worship anyone except the God who created me. I do not take his name in vain and observe the Sabbath as a day of worship and rest. Mormons don't accept the Nicene Creed or any of the other early Church creeds, so your criticisms of any religious practices Constantine established are really neither here nor there, as far as I'm concerned.
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The 7th day of the week, Saturday, is the Sabbath. Unless observation has failed me, the Mormons keep the Roman Catholic church's Lord's day, which is the day of the sun, Sunday, the day instituted by Constantine in 321 AD. Per Constantine's decree, one could not buy or sell on his god's day of the sun, now known as the blue laws. A graven image, no matter how much gold and silver is applied, remains a graven image (Revelation 9:18-21), none of them can "see, hear nor walk". The Mormons also accept the unholy Roman Catholic Cannon as holy. That means they treat the tare seed the same as the "good seed". A little leaven will ruin the whole loaf. As an aside, we are approaching the 7th millennium which is representative of the 7th day, the day of rest, and the 1000 years of rest for God. The 8th day, the day of the sun, represents the time of rest for the wicked, which is known as the 2nd death, the great white throne judgment.
     
  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Okay, I get it. It sounds as if you believe in a literal seven (24-hour) day creation, and mankind's ability to have maintained a perfect record of each 7-day week since God took a "day of rest" after completing the Creation. See, to me, neither of those concepts make much sense. I do not believe in a young earth, a 7-day creation or perfect record keeping since "the beginning." I believe that God wants us to observe a day of rest once a week, to set aside that day as one where we worship Him and try to refocus on the blessings He's given us. I don't believe that He is so petty as to care whether we do that on a Friday, a Saturday or a Sunday, as long as we do it. Mormons are definitely committed to keeping the Sabbath Day holy, but we do observe it on Sunday, in commemoration of the day Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

    As far as the Bible is concerned, we use the King James Version. It is one of four volumes of scripture we believe the Lord has given us for our edification and spiritual growth. Since we believe a general Apostasy took place shortly after the deaths of Christ's Apostles, we do not see the Roman Catholic Church as ever having held the authority Jesus Christ gave to Peter to lead the Church once He'd ascended to Heaven. It was, however, the Catholic Church who safeguarded the writings that now constitute the Christian Bible. While the Bible is definitely imperfect, it is most certainly far better than nothing. Any time human hands are involved in compiling, preserving, transcribing or translating an ancient text, there are going to be flaws in it. But without the Catholic Church, we would have no Bible at all today, so Mormons acknowledge the fact that they did give us what we now have, regardless of whether it is complete or inerrant..
     
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