What is perfection for living humans?

[Mock Turtle]

back to the garden

with God Himself handing you what you need
what more could you want?

but no....

and I believe we were never intended to live much more than we do

if you have a curiosity
and you do more than watch tv
you might crossover into the next life with enough of what it takes to continue

I suspect.....couch potatoes end up sliced and diced
and deep fried for the devil's table

Never intended? So God is incompetent, or couldn't envision the future for his creation? How could a path of knowledge be restricted - or were we just pets of God - and ungrateful ones at that?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Perfection is limited by these constraints:

1. Biological organisms require continual replenishment of energy and food and water and air.
2. There are limited resources leading to extreme competition.
3. Evolution is the "designer" of organisms and, therefore; they are optimized merely to pass on genes.

The best that can be hoped for is the ideal of enlightened societies and cultures, having respect for everyone (including animals). But, sadly, authoritarians and dictators are able to thrive and dominate and destroy everything good.

And all-too-many humans are duped into believing illogical things.

If I were a good God, I would not have created the universe to be like this.

For me, the spiritual striving for perfection seems at odds with the reality of the life we lead, as we are embedded in the rest of life, even to the extent of non-human life being embedded within us. And then, how is it possible for humans to live any life of perfection that mostly just destroys many other forms of life. We can't help ourselves doing so it seems - especially when much of it has our death as their aims or by-products.

 

[Thief]

Never intended? So God is incompetent, or couldn't envision the future for his creation? How could a path of knowledge be restricted - or were we just pets of God - and ungrateful ones at that?

this form is made to form spirit

the garden served a purpose and was then dismantled

you are an assembly
soon to be dismantled

 

[Segev Moran]

The ability to do whatever makes you happy.
Discovering what actually makes you happy is the hard part.

What if beating other people makes me happy?

 

[MonkeyFire]

Perfection must be perfected, as safety requires saving, and how knowledge must coexist with determination.

 

[Trailblazer]

No one want to discuss how we should relate to non-human life - as in meat-eating, how we treat them whilst doing so, how we are to manage our relationships whilst all too often destroying their habitat, how we so often don't recognise the intelligence in their lives, etc.? Can we pursue our own destinies whilst ignoring these issues?

I'll chime in. I see non-human life as just as important as human life and I do not care why the Abrahamic religions say about how humans are superior to animals. I am my own person.
Why did God create animals if they are not important, I have never figured that one out.

Of course, I love animals more than most people. so I am a little bit biased.
Give me a cat to sleep with any day over a human, and the more the merrier.
There is nothing I love more than my cats, not even my husband or God, and they both know that.

 

[Mock Turtle]

this form is made to form spirit

the garden served a purpose and was then dismantled

you are an assembly
soon to be dismantled

Not sure the rest of nature would like to see itself as just existing for our benefit, and disposable. Perhaps one thing I don't particular like about some religions - especially where so many of us just see humans as being a more successful adaptation (possibly) over others.

 

[Mock Turtle]

I'll chime in. I see non-human life as just as important as human life and I do not care why the Abrahamic religions say about how humans are superior to animals. I am my own person.
Why did God create animals if they are not important, I have never figured that one out.

Of course, I love animals more than most people. so I am a little bit biased.
Give me a cat to sleep with any day over a human, and the more the merrier.
There is nothing I love more than my cats, not even my husband or God, and they both know that.

Same here - that I have suspicions as to human life being more important over other life, hence one of the reasons for my lack of belief. Perhaps they are within our existence to test us in some fashion, but what exactly do they get out of the deal - predating and being predated, as well as being exploited by us.

Not hard to love all animal life, even the predators, when they often are so close to us in many ways and also so different in many others.

 

[Thief]

Why did God create animals if they are not important, I have never figured that one out.

to form a better spirit you need a better form

to support the chemistry of the better form
you need a LOT of lesser forms doing a constant give and take of chemistry

you might not think deep sea creatures have a relationship to your life

but hey.....your water to salt content is the same as the ocean

I don't remember where I read that
but it kicked my perspective

we never really left the water

 

[Nakosis]

What if beating other people makes me happy?

"Beating" how? There is nothing wrong with healthy competition.

Causing harm is an fulfills aberrational need but it's not going to make them happy. Biggest problem for most is they don't actually know what makes them happy.

Perhaps I should have said find out what makes you spiritually happy and do that.

 

[Thief]

Perhaps I should have said find out what makes you spiritually happy and do that.

may I offer a word of caution

doing what another spirit enjoys may be ok

but it could make all the difference the 'spirit' you attempt to serve

 

[Trailblazer]

Not hard to love all animal life, even the predators, when they often are so close to us in many ways and also so different in many others.

Yeah, but I am going broke feeding so many animals....
We spend at least twice as much money on food for animals as on food for ourselves.
Then there are the vet bills.
I stopped adding it up a long time ago because it was too depressing...
Cats, raccoons, squirrels, chipmunks, birds, they all need to eat and they want what they want.

 

[Segev Moran]

"Beating" how? There is nothing wrong with healthy competition.

Causing harm is an fulfills aberrational need but it's not going to make them happy. Biggest problem for most is they don't actually know what makes them happy.

Perhaps I should have said find out what makes you spiritually happy and do that.

No. i meant punching...
Physically hurting others.
Happiness is a subjective feeling. how can you know what makes one feel happy?
Also, i don't really know of a "physical" happiness
What if someone is happy... "spiritually" happy when he is walking nude?

 

[Nakosis]

No. i meant punching...
Physically hurting others.

Your fulfilling a desire. There're be consequences to the actions you take. While a person may get some temporary pleasure ultimately fulfilling desires is not a path to real happiness.

Happiness is a subjective feeling. how can you know what makes one feel happy?

I find happiness is one's natural state when their needs are fulfilled. So to be happy, one needs only to deal with what is keeping them from being happy. A desire to cause harm I'd suspect is something which is actually keeping them from being happy.

This is why I said one has to find out what actually makes them happy.

Also, i don't really know of a "physical" happiness

As opposed to material happiness. The pursuit of material possession.

What if someone is happy... "spiritually" happy when he is walking nude?

They should find out why they aren't happy while wearing clothes. Walk around nude in public, they get arrested, they are not going to be happy.

 

[night912]

To me, perfection is something to strive for trying to be as close to it as possible, but can never reach. The reason is because it's a paradox. Once you are perfect, you are no longer perfect. Here's something to think about.

That's the perfect imperfection.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yeah, but I am going broke feeding so many animals....
We spend at least twice as much money on food for animals as on food for ourselves.
Then there are the vet bills.
I stopped adding it up a long time ago because it was too depressing...
Cats, raccoons, squirrels, chipmunks, birds, they all need to eat and they want what they want.

Don't the cats eat the birds? They tend to do around these parts - if they can catch them of course. You get a better spread of animals than we do - apart from squirrels occasionally.

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't the cats eat the birds? They tend to do around these parts - if they can catch them of course. You get a better spread of animals than we do - apart from squirrels occasionally.

No, there is only one outdoor cat and we feed her so she does not go after birds.
The other 10 cats live indoors and eat high on the hog.

 

[Segev Moran]

Your fulfilling a desire.

Everything one does is fulfilling a desire.
Eating, sleeping, sex, everything.

There're be consequences to the actions you take.

Of course.

While a person may get some temporary pleasure ultimately fulfilling desires is not a path to real happiness.

One can argue happiness is achieved by filling all my desires.
One can find happiness by being able to resist his desires.
Some might find happiness by helping others. some may find happiness by hurting others.
There is no "Universal Happiness"

I find happiness is one's natural state when their needs are fulfilled.

Needs are based on desires

So to be happy, one needs only to deal with what is keeping them from being happy.
A desire to cause harm I'd suspect is something which is actually keeping them from being happy.

How can you know this?

This is why I said one has to find out what actually makes them happy.

I think you are being blind to many people who find happiness in wrong doing.
From your POV it might not be understood why they feel happy, but it doesn't mean they are not happy.

As opposed to material happiness. The pursuit of material possession.

It is rarely that happiness is achieved by material possessions.
The cliche is right, "money" wont make you happy. I think most people agree with that.
But happiness, "material" or not, is subjective.

They should find out why they aren't happy while wearing clothes. Walk around nude in public, they get arrested, they are not going to be happy.

Unless they enjoy spending time in prison
(I've met several people who actually like it).

 

[Nakosis]

One can argue happiness is achieved by filling all my desires.
One can find happiness by being able to resist his desires.
Some might find happiness by helping others. some may find happiness by hurting others.
There is no "Universal Happiness"

I find that there is a universal happiness. Existence itself is universally happy.

Needs are based on desires

No I disagree. I'd rather not have to ever sleep. It's a need, not something I desire.

How can you know this?

Experience. Mostly understanding the idea of karma. Freed from karma one is free to enjoy life.

I think you are being blind to many people who find happiness in wrong doing.
From your POV it might not be understood why they feel happy, but it doesn't mean they are not happy.

Actually I was one of those people. I understand quite well how and why a person finds themselves on that path.

It is rarely that happiness is achieved by material possessions.
The cliche is right, "money" wont make you happy. I think most people agree with that.
But happiness, "material" or not, is subjective.

Well some common ground.

Unless they enjoy spending time in prison
(I've met several people who actually like it).

They settle for consistency/security when they can't find actual happiness.

 

[ChristineM]

Here on Earth I mean - if that is possible - according to your belief. What kind of humans would pass for such and what kind of behaviour by them would do so? And also, what kind of relationship would these humans have with all life that is non-human? Is perfection possible or would striving do instead if not?

Be honest with yourself and others, dont do what you would not want others to do. Keep love close, and do the best you can. Respect the environment. Be yourself