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What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

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Renji

Well-Known Member
But your position, let me get it, is the angel Moroni fiction then? Are the plates fiction?

I also red an article about J. Smith regarding the golden plates that he saw. He claims that he had seen it "with his natural (physical) eyes". Then, someone asked him if he really saw it with his physical eyes. He answered: " I saw it with my spiritual eyes." This statement from him confuses me.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I also red an article about J. Smith regarding the golden plates that he saw. He claims that he had seen it "with his natural (physical) eyes". Then, someone asked him if he really saw it with his physical eyes. He answered: " I saw it with my spiritual eyes." This statement from him confuses me.

I don't believe the quote is attributable to Joseph Smith, but to someone else.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Definitely, the idea that we did not exist before this world conflicts heavily with the idea of free agency or free will.

It is one of our most precious beliefs is that we desired to become like our Heavenly Father, to come to this earth for the purpose of gaining a physical body and learning to control (not necessarily suppress) our thoughts, desires, appetites, and lusts. That all things must be done in moderation and within the bounds the Lord has set. The reason for these boundaries? is to help us come to know how Heavenly Father conducts himself and how he loves his children. Heavenly Father is perfected and we too have the opportunity to be perfected through the savior Jesus Christ if we will do what he asks of us in this life. what does he ask? Love the Lord Thy God, Keep the Commandments, and forgive everyone their trespasses so that we may also be forgiven. It takes self-mastery, of which i spoke previously, which is truly a lifelong process. God did not force us to come here, we wanted to because we knew what the reward would be if we triumphed.

It would seem both Old & New Testaments disagree. GOD is Omnipresent.
Jeremiah 23:23-24


23 “Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God far away? 24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Acts 17:24-25


24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
I sure don't.
My question: Now I'm confused. I thought you said it was about the fruits. Now you're saying it's who they trust? What if they place their trust and faith in Jesus, but don't show those fruits? What if they show those fruits, but don't believe in Jesus?
Your answer: Faith and trust go hand in hand.

Say what?
Let's try again. If a person demonstrates all the traits you listed as "fruits," but does not place their trust and faith in Jesus, are they a True Believer?
If a person places their faith and trust in Jesus, but does not demonstrate all of these traits, are they a True Believer?

To make it clear, you might want to try a yes or no. Or, of course, I don't know is always fine.

Faith must be in GOD and since JESUS is GOD, then yes, one must have faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST --- trusting in HIM and HIM alone for everything...
 

Rogue Cardinal

Devil's Advocate
Why is such a distinction important?

Whether or not the story is "real" is irrelevant to the Truth it teaches.
Well for example.....if we say the Creation story is allegory....then did God REALLY create the Universe or is it more important to understand that we should obey his commands?

See the Bible is often used as the ultimate source for Christians on creation....but if it is allegory (and many Christians totally agree that it is) then does that leave the door open to other ideas that are different than what the Bible says about creation? I think it does.

The story of Job is completely allegory. I don't think anyone would argue that. But look at the concept of the devil that was taken from that story and twisted into a reality of the devil. But the story is allegory. So why should we BELIEVE the devil is X when the story we get it from is fiction? Perhaps that Devil is X only in that story?

Unfortunately many Christians take things that are clearly allegory and use them as real thing...as if they really happened and twist up the meaning of the story and miss the point in general of the allegory.
 

Rogue Cardinal

Devil's Advocate
The majority of LDS will say no.

It is my personal belief that whether the Book of Mormon is fiction or not is irrelevant. It is the Truth the Book of Mormon teaches that is important.
There are lots of stuff inteh Bible that I beleive to be truth....or common sense. But does that mean we shoudl worship God if the stories are fiction? IF it's not real....and it's Gods word....doees that mean God is not real?
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
It would seem both Old & New Testaments disagree. GOD is Omnipresent.
Jeremiah 23:23-24


23 “Am I a God at hand, declares the Lord, and not a God far away? 24 Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Acts 17:24-25


24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.
Bible Dictionary: God
Although God created all things and is the ruler of the universe, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (through his Spirit)[The Holy Ghost], mankind has a special relationship to him that differentiates man from all other created things: man is literally God’s offspring, made in his image, whereas all other things are but the work of his hands (cf. Acts 17: 28-29).
 

misanthropic_clown

Active Member
There are lots of stuff inteh Bible that I beleive to be truth....or common sense. But does that mean we shoudl worship God if the stories are fiction? IF it's not real....and it's Gods word....doees that mean God is not real?

Well, if I were to accept the Book of Mormon as God-inspired fiction, I would imagine that the doctrines, moral messages and to some extent the methods of worship presented would be those God would wish us to be concerned with, even if the literal history presented never happened. I would agree, however, that it would be immensely difficult to establish which parts should and should not be taken at face value.
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
Well, if I were to accept the Book of Mormon as God-inspired fiction, I would imagine that the doctrines, moral messages and to some extent the methods of worship presented would be those God would wish us to be concerned with, even if the literal history presented never happened. I would agree, however, that it would be immensely difficult to establish which parts should and should not be taken at face value.
I would take, for instance, proverbs such as the Lord's Vinyard from Jacob as non-literal, But rather a story the Lord uses to make his point easier to understand.
 

Rogue Cardinal

Devil's Advocate
Well, if I were to accept the Book of Mormon as God-inspired fiction, I would imagine that the doctrines, moral messages and to some extent the methods of worship presented would be those God would wish us to be concerned with, even if the literal history presented never happened. I would agree, however, that it would be immensely difficult to establish which parts should and should not be taken at face value.
OR is it that it's not GOD that wants us to know those things but man that wants us to know those things under the guise of God?

For example you and I would probably agree a lot on morals and values as far as what they SHOULD be. Where we would differ is where they come from. So if you can for arguments sake say the entire BOM is practical fiction and I could for arguments sake agree the same for the Bible....then what we can equate them both to being are some good ideas and some bad ideas written by man.

If we start to say this is allegory and that is real, where do we draw the line? How or who gets to decide? If we can agree on the moral of the story is there any reason to attribute any of it to God or do we do that to help safeguard that people will obey the rules we agree upon and us something like hell as a device to scare them into shape if they won't bow to our will?
 

Humanistheart

Well-Known Member
I avoided this post because Autodidact is on my ignore list and has been for quite some time. (I recently removed the one other person on my list. Auto now has the distinction of being the only person on RF I pretend doesn't exist.) I don't even see her posts unless someone quotes them, and I never respond to them. Don't hold your breath because that's not likely to change anytime soon. :D

Ah I see, she's intellegent enough that you can't counter her arguments in any way so you merely ignore her. Or does it come down to the lds hatred of homosexuals?

At either rate since you refuse to address the blatant issues with the BoM, and good factual posts like the one autodidact presents I must wonder, what motivation or reason do any of us have to take you seriously after this Katz? Why debate or bother to offer counter arguments to your claims when we know you'll just ignore us when we present to strong a case for you to try and defend against?

I will take your complete avoision of the topic as a sign that deep down you know the BoM is complete fiction.
 
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Humanistheart

Well-Known Member
The Fruits of the Spirit are spelled out in the Bible, GOD's Holy Word. The Bible presents the LORD JESUS CHRIST as the originator of those fruits.

Actually liltlenipper, if you read the bible, it makes it clear that jesus was not a christ in any way, shape or form. He did not fullfill one single prophicy that would be required to call him a christ.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Bible Dictionary: God
Although God created all things and is the ruler of the universe, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (through his Spirit)[The Holy Ghost], mankind has a special relationship to him that differentiates man from all other created things: man is literally God’s offspring, made in his image, whereas all other things are but the work of his hands (cf. Acts 17: 28-29).

Acts 17:28-31 (New International Version)

28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill.
30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

It is obvious to me from this passage that man has a connection with the Creator GOD as a special creation. We are were MADE in GOD's likeness. I do not feel that coupled with the rest of the Bible that man is begotten by GOD. GOD breathed and man became a living being. Our connection with eternity past comes only from the reality that GOD has indeed always been, and HE made us. I do not see any indication that we were born of GOD as spirit children to be reborn. That is conjecture. What I do see is that poetically speaking, we do have the closest affinity to GOD of anything of the rest of Creation. GOD is real and beyond what we can imagine.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Actually liltlenipper, if you read the bible, it makes it clear that jesus was not a christ in any way, shape or form. He did not fullfill one single prophicy that would be required to call him a christ.

Isaiah 53


1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Psalm 22 (New International Versio

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [a]
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me [b] in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord. 31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
 

Humanistheart

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 53


.

Nothing in that long non-answer indicated jesus qualified in any way as a messiah. In fact, as has already been proven on another thread, it's more apt to call jesus an anti-christ.

So as not to disrupt this thread and it's main topic of the oddities and falsities of the BoM, I'll provide you with the link to an ealier thread in which jesus has already been proven to be a false christ.

Alright, seeing as you're unfamiliar with the messianic prophicies and what would be required of one before being called a christ, I'll explain (also perhaps this will help with the utter lack of intellectual conversation on this thread).

Messiah (keep in mind messiah and christ mean the same thing and are interchangable) means annointed one, specifically, an anointment into the service of god using prepared holy oils. (see Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3, etc). Jesus was never annointed, yet people call him a word that means annointed, mostly out of ingorance.

The future messiah described in the prophicies was to be of the line of david, on the fathers side. Jesus had no earthly father so that's out (and we do not have mary's lineage so even if that could be counted there's no reason to think she was of the royal line). (Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1).

The messiah is to bring all jews back to their land of Isreal. (Isaiah 43:5-6). Not only did jesus not do this, but in fact christian nations across the world have mistreated and abused the jewish people for centuries, culminating in the holocaust of WW2, so if anything jesus's legacy was to do the opposite.

The messiah is to usher in a golden age of peace that would spread across the world(Isaiah 2:4). Again, jesus did not do that. In fact his own words suggest the opposite, as he flat out said he did not come to bring peace but a sword (a metaphorical sword perhaps, but the message that he would not bring peace was clear). And again, his followers, christians, have the dubious honor of being the most blood soaked religion ever to curse this world. So again, jesus's legacy has been the opposite of what the messiah's was to be.

The messiah is to bring the world to the truth of god, so that all as one would see him as lord(Zechariah 14:9). Yet because of jesus a new version of the god of abraham was born, a trinity of gods combined into one. And there are numerious offshoot religions that have tacken this further, and changed the concept of god even more from it's original, such as mormonism or the bahai. This is hardly a unity as to the truth of this god now is it? At any rate the point is that yet again jesus fails the test of the messiah.

The messiah was also to build the 3rd temple, yet this was not done either. (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

Also, as the leader of isreal, the messiah was to guide the people through proper observance of Torah, yet jesus repeatedly changed or ignored torah. In Deut. 13:1-4 we see that this alone is enough to identify the man as a false prophet.

So you see jesus in no way qualified as a messiah, and in most ways was the opposite or anti-messiah. It is therefore entirely apt to describe this character as an anti-christ.

I soppose this is another oddity of the BoM, which implies jesus was the christ. Does it say why? If it doesn't add or contradict the bible in some way then Smith picked a false messiah to work into his religion. Understandable since he was targeting gullable christians who didn't even know what christ meant for his new religion.
 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
No, how do you tell?

For example
And it came to pass that two hundred years had passed away; and the second generation had all passed away save it were a few. 23 And now I, Mormon, would that ye should know that the people had multiplied, insomuch that they were spread upon all the face of the land, and that they had become exceedingly rich, because of their prosperity in Christ.
24 And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.
25 And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them.
26 And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ.
27 And it came to pass that when two hundred and ten years had passed away there were many churches in the land; yea, there were many churches which professed to know the Christ, and yet they did deny the more parts of his gospel, insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness, and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness.
28 And this church did multiply exceedingly because of iniquity, and because of the power of Satan who did get hold upon their hearts.
29 And again, there was another church which denied the Christ; and they did persecute the true church of Christ, because of their humility and their belief in Christ; and they did despise them because of the many miracles which were wrought among them.


How do we tell if this is supposed to be factual or real?


(And why doesn't it ever bother Mormons how comically poorly written it is?)

Not to mention there's been no finding of said people to substantiate this claim...so we must conclude, just like that which is offered by bible apologist, what is said is not to be taken literally.:rolleyes:
 
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