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What is nothingness?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I believe the terms for nothingness have been Defined, but of course not in agreement from the philosophical perspective and the scientific perspective..

The absolute nothingness is a philosophical nothing most often used to refer to pre-Creation conditions prior to the existence of our physical existence. It means specifically a vacuum where absolutely nothing exists sometimes referred to as 'Genesis Vacuum.'

From the scientific perspective, yes, 'Quantum nothing' is not nothing. It is the nature of the boundless Quantum World continuum that underlies our our universe and pervades all existence prior to the beginning of our universe, from which all possible universes arise, governed by the Laws of Nature that we describe as Quantum Mechanics. The space/time macroworld of our universe arises from the Quantum World of Quantum Nothingness.

This Forbes article goes into more detail of the different scientific perspectives of may be called 'nothing,' The article is a bit long so I am citing a specific section that is relevant. Forbes tends to be a bit wordy. I personally do not like using the 'nothing term from the science perspective, but nonetheless . . .

Source: The Four Scientific Meanings Of 'Nothing'



The Four Scientific Meanings Of 'Nothing'
Starts With A Bang


Ethan SiegelSenior Contributor
Starts With A BangContributor Group
Science The Universe is out there, waiting for you to discover it.

But the matter we have today didn't come from pre-existing matter. At some point in the distant past, the Universe was composed of equal amounts of matter and antimatter; the laws of physics that we've discovered only enable us to create them in equal amounts. Yet the Universe we have today is overwhelmingly made of matter and not antimatter, where every one of the billions upon billions of galaxies we know of are made of matter and not antimatter. Where did our matter asymmetry come from? From a previously symmetric state; from a state where matter and antimatter existed in equal amounts. From a time when there was no asymmetry. According to some, this means that the matter we have today arose from nothing, although others who adhere strictly to one of the other definitions dispute this.

4.) Whatever you're left with when you take away the entire Universe and the laws governing it. At last, you can conceive of removing everything, including space, time, and the rules that govern any sort of particles or quanta of energy. This creates a type of "nothing" that physicists have no definition for. This goes beyond "nothing" as it exists in the Universe, instead realizing some sort of philosophical, absolute nothingness. But in the context of physics, we cannot make sense of this sort of nothingness. We'd have to assume that there is such a thing as a state outside of space and time, where you can have the emergence of spacetime from this hypothesized state of true nothingness.

But is that possible? How does spacetime emerge at a particular location, when there's no such thing as space? How can you create the beginning of time if there's no concept of something like "before" without time already existing? And where, then, would the rules governing particles and their interactions arise from? Does this final definition of "nothing" even mean anything at all, or is it just a logical construct with no physical meaning of its own?

Fluctuations in spacetime itself at the quantum scale get stretched across the Universe during... [+] inflation, giving rise to imperfections in both density and gravitational waves. While inflating space can rightfully be called 'nothing' in many regards, not everyone agrees.
Fluctuations in spacetime itself at the quantum scale get stretched across the Universe during...

There is no consensus here. With language having the ambiguity it does, you can say "nothing" and legitimately be referring to any of these, with purists eagerly waiting to yell at you if you dare use "nothing" in a context which is less pure than their definition. If something fundamentally arose where there was no such thing before, you can call it nothing, but not everyone will agree. If you take all the matter, antimatter, radiation, and even spatial curvature away, you can certainly lay a claim to that being what "nothing" is all about, but there are some "things" that are still around. If you then take away any energy inherent to space itself, leaving only spacetime and the laws of nature, you can call that "nothing" as well. But philosophically, some people will still be dissatisfied. Only by taking away that as well will some finally acquiesce to calling such an entity "nothing."

© Copyright Original Source
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I believe the terms for nothingness have been Defined, but of course not in agreement from the philosophical perspective and the scientific perspective..

The absolute nothingness is a philosophical nothing most often used to refer to pre-Creation conditions prior to the existence of our physical existence. It means specifically a vacuum where absolutely nothing exists sometimes referred to as 'Genesis Vacuum.'

From the scientific perspective, yes, 'Quantum nothing' is not nothing. It is the nature of the boundless Quantum World continuum that underlies our our universe and pervades all existence prior to the beginning of our universe, from which all possible universes arise, governed by the Laws of Nature that we describe as Quantum Mechanics. The space/time macroworld of our universe arises from the Quantum World of Quantum Nothingness.

This Forbes article goes into more detail of the different scientific perspectives of may be called 'nothing,' The article is a bit long so I am citing a specific section that is relevant. Forbes tends to be a bit wordy. I personally do not like using the 'nothing term from the science perspective, but nonetheless . . .

Source: The Four Scientific Meanings Of 'Nothing'



The Four Scientific Meanings Of 'Nothing'
Starts With A Bang


Ethan SiegelSenior Contributor
Starts With A BangContributor Group
Science The Universe is out there, waiting for you to discover it.

But the matter we have today didn't come from pre-existing matter. At some point in the distant past, the Universe was composed of equal amounts of matter and antimatter; the laws of physics that we've discovered only enable us to create them in equal amounts. Yet the Universe we have today is overwhelmingly made of matter and not antimatter, where every one of the billions upon billions of galaxies we know of are made of matter and not antimatter. Where did our matter asymmetry come from? From a previously symmetric state; from a state where matter and antimatter existed in equal amounts. From a time when there was no asymmetry. According to some, this means that the matter we have today arose from nothing, although others who adhere strictly to one of the other definitions dispute this.

4.) Whatever you're left with when you take away the entire Universe and the laws governing it. At last, you can conceive of removing everything, including space, time, and the rules that govern any sort of particles or quanta of energy. This creates a type of "nothing" that physicists have no definition for. This goes beyond "nothing" as it exists in the Universe, instead realizing some sort of philosophical, absolute nothingness. But in the context of physics, we cannot make sense of this sort of nothingness. We'd have to assume that there is such a thing as a state outside of space and time, where you can have the emergence of spacetime from this hypothesized state of true nothingness.

But is that possible? How does spacetime emerge at a particular location, when there's no such thing as space? How can you create the beginning of time if there's no concept of something like "before" without time already existing? And where, then, would the rules governing particles and their interactions arise from? Does this final definition of "nothing" even mean anything at all, or is it just a logical construct with no physical meaning of its own?

Fluctuations in spacetime itself at the quantum scale get stretched across the Universe during... [+] inflation, giving rise to imperfections in both density and gravitational waves. While inflating space can rightfully be called 'nothing' in many regards, not everyone agrees.
Fluctuations in spacetime itself at the quantum scale get stretched across the Universe during...

There is no consensus here. With language having the ambiguity it does, you can say "nothing" and legitimately be referring to any of these, with purists eagerly waiting to yell at you if you dare use "nothing" in a context which is less pure than their definition. If something fundamentally arose where there was no such thing before, you can call it nothing, but not everyone will agree. If you take all the matter, antimatter, radiation, and even spatial curvature away, you can certainly lay a claim to that being what "nothing" is all about, but there are some "things" that are still around. If you then take away any energy inherent to space itself, leaving only spacetime and the laws of nature, you can call that "nothing" as well. But philosophically, some people will still be dissatisfied. Only by taking away that as well will some finally acquiesce to calling such an entity "nothing."

© Copyright Original Source

I suppose you can say there are two nothings.
1 - the "nothing" or apparent emptiness of outer space.
2 - the "nothing" that exists outside of nature.

The first nothing is superfluous. Space is filled with radiation, photons, hydrogen etc
and at a deeper level it is composed of space-time with is the quantum space "fabric"
plus time itself. This nothing is quite complicated and very busy.

Some people DELIBERATELY confuse this space "nothing" with true nothing where
there is no quantum, no time, no physics etc. There's not even emptiness in this
utter "nothing." The universe pushes into this void, and emerged from it too. Try to
figure THAT one out.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I suppose you can say there are two nothings.
1 - the "nothing" or apparent emptiness of outer space.
2 - the "nothing" that exists outside of nature.

The first nothing is superfluous. Space is filled with radiation, photons, hydrogen etc
and at a deeper level it is composed of space-time with is the quantum space "fabric"
plus time itself. This nothing is quite complicated and very busy.

Some people DELIBERATELY confuse this space "nothing" with true nothing where
there is no quantum, no time, no physics etc. There's not even emptiness in this
utter "nothing." The universe pushes into this void, and emerged from it too. Try to
figure THAT one out.

There is no confusion here, but the there are two different perspectives on the nature of our physical existence and 'origins.'

I would not consider there are two nothings as you describe. What you are describing is a Theistic view of 'What is absolute nothingness?' beyond the Theistic Creation of our physical existence or some describe as the 'Genesis Vacuum' and not the scientific view of 'Quantum nothingness, From the evidence there is a Quantum World of 'Quantum nothingness. There is not objective way to consider a pre-Creation 'no Quantum existence' from the scientific perspective as cited in the previous article.
.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Couching "nothingness" in scientific jargon doesn't make it any less philosophical, nor any more phenomenological. It is still an abstract conceptual absolute that cannot be experienced or quantized or explored in any way. Human philosophy generates it's possibility, and that's it. We have no capacity or capability to go any further with it.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Couching "nothingness" in scientific jargon doesn't make it any less philosophical, nor any more phenomenological. It is still an abstract conceptual absolute that cannot be experienced or quantized or explored in any way. Human philosophy generates it's possibility, and that's it. We have no capacity or capability to go any further with it.

First, there is a reason why I do not like the vocabulary of 'nothing' and 'nothingness' in science, because they do not have a coherent meaning from the scientific perspective. They were originally used anecdotally to describe the scientific understand of the nature of the Quantum World, which a misleading attempt to use analogy for layman.

The Quantum World underlying our physical existence is objectively determined by Quantum Mechanics, Yes there are many unknowns, but it is unreasonable to assert that: "We have no capacity or capability to go any further with it."
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
I see two types of nothing, first what is commonly considered nothing i.e you genesis nothing, a vacuum with dimensions within which particles can exist.

And absolute nothing as no vacuum, no dimensions, no sub atomic particles.

The first is quite easy to grasp, the second not so much.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
There is no "nothingness", neither in a scientific nor in a theistic world view. In the one there are quantum fluctuations in the other there are gods. Only philosophers are able to argue about nothing.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Some people DELIBERATELY confuse this space "nothing" with true nothing where
there is no quantum, no time, no physics etc. There's not even emptiness in this
utter "nothing." The universe pushes into this void, and emerged from it too. Try to
figure THAT one out.

What on earth makes you think that the universe "emerged" from such a state? It doesn't even make sense. Absolute nothingness cannot actually exist because time is not nothing, so there literally can be no time at which absolute nothing existed.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
no light.....no shadow
no heat....no cold
no secondary point (location)
no place to come from
no place to go to

without the secondary.....no movement
no time

without the secondary....no infinity
no 'points' in-between the first 'two'

and the ONLY mystery....

how to say....I AM!
 

PureX

Veteran Member
First, there is a reason why I do not like the vocabulary of 'nothing' and 'nothingness' in science, because they do not have a coherent meaning from the scientific perspective. They were originally used anecdotally to describe the scientific understand of the nature of the Quantum World, which a misleading attempt to use analogy for layman.
I agree. But when dealing with the quantum realm, often, philosophy is the nearest relative vocabulary that we have. I am not a modern day worshiper of science (as so many are these days) so I have no problem with our having to face the limitations of science, as is clearly evidenced by our exploration of the quantum realm. Just as faith takes up where knowledge falls short, so philosophy takes up where science falls short. I have no problem with this, because I don't expect these various human activities to be or do anything other than what they are able to.
The Quantum World underlying our physical existence is objectively determined by Quantum Mechanics, Yes there are many unknowns, but it is unreasonable to assert that: "We have no capacity or capability to go any further with it."
Once we hit the limits (and the innate flaws) of this collective delusion of 'objectivity' that we humans are so enamored with, the various methods (disciplines) of conceptual consideration begin to dissolve. Math is just a way of cognitively defining our limited and biased experience of reality, it is not a verification of reality. Quantum 'particles' are just differentiated phenomena as extrapolated from information obtained through the VERY limited and biased lens of our technology. I know we humans love to pretend to ourselves that we'll soon have it all figured out, and will finally become the gods we always believed we were intended to be, but in fact, the chasm of the unknown before us could and may very well be of a magnitude far beyond our comprehension (even if we were willing to try).
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
We'd have to assume that there is such a thing as a state outside of space and time, where you can have the emergence of spacetime from this hypothesized state of true nothingness.
So assume that. That is something that we do not know and science has still to go some distance to find the answer. Why must you assume only the opposite? It sure is strange. As strange and Einstein's length or Planck's Wave Mechanics.

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.": Thomas Kuhn
Max Planck - Wikipedia

1024px-Nernst%2C_Einstein%2C_Planck%2C_Millikan%2C_Laue_in_1931.jpg

W. Nernst, A. Einstein, M. Planck, R.A. Millikan and von Laue
 

Super Universe

Defender of God
There is the void, as in Genesis, and nothingness, as in what is outside of space.

God created Himself in the void. He then created the Son and both of them created Spirit. Then God created the matrix which is a multiverse simulation. We are in the simulation.

Space is a matrix simulation that can be manipulated and used to bring forth matter and support that matter but the matrix has an outer limit. Beyond that is nothingness. No being can go there and no matter can be brought into existence there because that is outside the matrix. Think of a computer hard drive. There is a lot of information on the hard drive, that is the galaxies. There is also empty room on the hard drive, that is space. Outside the hard drive is nothingness.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
What on earth makes you think that the universe "emerged" from such a state? It doesn't even make sense. Absolute nothingness cannot actually exist because time is not nothing, so there literally can be no time at which absolute nothing existed.

You are correct, according to current thinking. Absolute nothingness is like what is north of the
North Pole.
It's interesting. One idea is that time is created as the universe expands. Fact is - we don't know
what time actually is, let alone how it works or where it comes from. Maybe it's a field like many
other things are fields.
But the main game in cosmology now is that the universe had a "beginning" and it will have an
"end." It's not eternal.
"Outside" of this is problematic. I wonder if "something" or "someone" created the universe from
the "outside" by things we not only don't know but things we could never comprehend, not even
with mathematics.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So assume that. That is something that we do not know and science has still to go some distance to find the answer. Why must you assume only the opposite? It sure is strange. As strange and Einstein's length or Planck's Wave Mechanics.

"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.": Thomas Kuhn
Max Planck - Wikipedia

1024px-Nernst%2C_Einstein%2C_Planck%2C_Millikan%2C_Laue_in_1931.jpg

W. Nernst, A. Einstein, M. Planck, R.A. Millikan and von Laue

You cited the article not me, and kind of incomplete. I do not consider Einstein's estimate of the length or Planck's Wave Mechanics strange.

The question of the existence of philosophical absolute nothingness is best described as not comprehensible from the scientific perspective. It is philosophical belief beyond any falsifiable hypothesis nor theory. It would have to exist beyond our Quantum World, and the plank limits of Quantum Mechanics.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
my father noticed I was staring out the window as we drove along
he did ask.....what are you thinking?

nothing

then he asked.....have you ever really tried to think of ….'nothing'....?

yes
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
so …..no equations
no photos
no fingerprint
and no repeatable experiment

all you can do is think about it

Arguing from ignorance does not contribute to the discussion. Science can go down to the plank level of Quantum mechanics and describes objectively a boundless Quantum World at the plank scale governed by Quantum Mechanics. It is not even remotely possible that there is some sort absolutely nothing beyond this.

We would need some objective verifiable evidence to go beyond this, and none is forthcoming.
 
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