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What is nonbinary?
- Thread starter We Never Know
- Start date
The Sum of Awe
Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
So it all really boils down to what someone wishes to be called? Are the words male and female without any meaning then?
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
I respect your honesty. It is a pretty difficult subject and it can be very coumter-intuitive for a lot of people. The important thing is that you are actually asking questions and seem to genuinely be trying to figure it out, which I also respect. It can be hard not to form a lot of preconceptions about stuff like this.
Madmogwai
Madmogwai
The traits are relevant, I'm just saying not for this post as your trying to play games rather then be truthful.
Regardless of how I look at them does not change what they are.
And nor can they change what they are.
King Phenomenon
Well-Known Member
Live and let live
I find that the Genderbread Person is a useful tool for helping build understanding:
Genderbread Person v4.0 » The Genderbread Person
A teaching tool for breaking the big concept of gender down into bite-sized, digestible pieces.
www.genderbread.org
For gender identity, there are two sliders: "Man-ness" and "Woman-ness."
With a gender binary, the assumption is that there are only two states:
- Man: the "Man-ness" slider is cranked all the way up and the "Woman-ness" slider is cranked all the way down.
- Woman: the "Woman-ness" slider is cranked all the way up and the "Man-ness" slider is cranked all the way down.
- Both sliders cranked up (i.e. identifying with both genders, e.g. being two-spirited)
- Both sliders cranked down (i.e. not identifying with either gender, e.g. being agender)
- Either or both sliders somewhere in the middle
- The position of the sliders varying over time (e.g. being genderfluid)
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
From the outside, yeah. You ask someone, they tell you, that's all you got to go on. Internally, there's much more going on, obviously.
Only social meaning. We have social expectations attached to these words, and often people feel a certain label conveys better the social expectations they feel closest or best represents them. As a gender abolitionist, I would just do away with the whole idea of associating certain expectations or characteristics to certain gender labels altogether, but as we still live in a society where gender plays a huge role in not only how people see and act towards us, but in how we see ourselves, it makes sense that people wish to use those labels in a way that does not stick them with one set or the other.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
If traits are irrelevant, how on earth do you identify anyone as either male or female? Do you require them to wear special badges?
I am not sure what game you think I'm playing. I'm literally just asking you some basic questions.
And how do you determine what they are?
The difference between a tomboy and a trans man is identity. A tomboy is a girl or woman who does things that are stereotypically associated with men/boys and not women/girls but still identifies as a woman/girl.
FYI: generally, the terms "man" and "woman" are used to describe gender, while "male" and "female" are used to describe sex. Not the same thing, but I noticed you mixing terms from the two different categories.
Madmogwai
Madmogwai
I'm not saying traits are irrelevant, we have genetic and social traits.
How can you tell, look at the person, obviously.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Yes you did. You said it twice, in fact.
Okay, so now traits DO matter?
Uh huh. So, what if you look at a person and are wrong about their gender?
We Never Know
No Slack
I've said that a lot and it would be great.
But IMO, in reality everyone wants their way and everyone gets up in everyone's business.
"Look at the person"... so for you, gender expression trumps all?
Madmogwai
Madmogwai
What if you do get their gender wrong, then that's on them.
And for the 3rd time I never said traits don't matter, you just cannot understand for some reason.
Madmogwai
Madmogwai
I don't determine what they are, nature did at Birth.
Madmogwai
Madmogwai
Nothing trumps anything, they are what they are, regardless of traits or how they look.
Madmogwai
Madmogwai
Well the LGBT community only let us live and let live if we agree with them.
The most intolerant group on earth
We Never Know
No Slack
Its going to come to a point where male and female, man and woman... Are meaningless.
A male(sex) can identify as a woman(gender) and live as a female(sex) and vice-versa
And with male and female, man and woman.....
I can't see how someone can feel like none of the above.
Our genes are around 91% similar to cats.
If a teen says I identify as a cat , everyone says that BS, its impossible, etc etc.
But yet a male can identify as a woman and a female as a man
Its all confusing
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JDMS
Academic Workhorse
You aren't alone.
Even as a binary trans man, I do not necessarily understand nonbinary identities.
I assume I superficially understand nonbinary identities the same way a cisgender person superficially understands my binary trans identity. I assume there's logic to it, but its locked behind the gate of personal experience and perception.
Hence why I respect nonbinary people, and never neglect to use the pronouns they ask me to use. No skin off my back.
