What is Love?

[Brickjectivity]

Since when is scripture evidence?

Maybe its evidence when our behavior doesn't support our words, and we need something else in place of our behavior to back up our words. You know Columbus earlier in the thread asked why it was Christians who most strongly backed the invasion of Iraq, and I say he made a great point. Why was it that many (not all) Christians hooted for war? Cleanse the wound instead of denying its there. You, Valjean, are valiantly fighting to help Christianity; and I never thought I'd catch you doing so. Its like you're trying to save it. What's gotten into you, lately? Are you gonna convert?

 

[Valjean]

What's the evidence for that? What was your testing method?

Evidence for diversity in religious doctrine? How about the diversity of religions?

 

[Valjean]

Maybe its evidence when our behavior doesn't support our words, and we need something else in place of our behavior to back up our words. You know Columbus earlier in the thread asked why it was Christians who most strongly backed the invasion of Iraq, and I say he made a great point. Why was it that many (not all) Christians hooted for war? Cleanse the wound instead of denying its there. You, Valjean, are valiantly fighting to help Christianity; and I never thought I'd catch you doing so. Its like you're trying to save it. What's gotten into you, lately? Are you gonna convert?

I'm fighting to help Christianity? I wasn't aware of that. Explain?
I do defend principles, and if Christian scripture promotes principles I agree with, I'll defend that. I'm much more likely to denounce the dichotomy between the behavior of Christians and their scripture.

 

[rrobs]

Evidence for diversity in religious doctrine? How about the diversity of religions?

Religion is man's attempt to explain God. Not much different that the Model-T trying to explain Henry Ford.

The scriptures are God explaining Himself to man. If they don't get it, it's not God's fault. Computer document analysis has determined that the scriptures are written at about a 6th grade reading level. God did all He could do to explain Himself in simple, easy to understand terms. The problem comes when people interject their own ideas, i.e. religion.

According to the scriptures, God made mad just a little lower than himself.

Ps 8:5,

For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
​

The word "angels" is the Hebrew word "elohiym" and it means "god." The translators must have thought that God didn't know what He was doing, so they just changed the word to "angels" for Him. In any case, God did make man just a bit lower than Himself, but that wasn't good enough for Eve. She wanted to be a god.

Gen 3:5,

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
​

Not much has changed. People still want to define their own reality, i.e. they want to be God. That's where religion comes from.

You understand perfectly well what I just wrote. I wrote nothing complicated. The scriptures are the same way. There is a spiritual reason for 40,000 different denominations. It was certainly not God's idea.

1 Cor 1:10,

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
​

That's what God wants. If people don't do it, it's on them. They have free will and make their own choices.

Take care.

 

[Valjean]

Religion is man's attempt to explain God. Not much different that the Model-T trying to explain Henry Ford.

No, few religions try to explain God. This is the obsession of the Abrahamic religions, and even they don't "explain" god, they just posit his existence and squabble about his laws and how to appease him.

The scriptures are God explaining Himself to man. If they don't get it, it's not God's fault. Computer document analysis has determined that the scriptures are written at about a 6th grade reading level. God did all He could do to explain Himself in simple, easy to understand terms. The problem comes when people interject their own ideas, i.e. religion.

It must be a pretty incompetent god. His "explanations" have yielded little but war and divisiveness. You'd think a god could explain himself clearly and ensure his word was not corrupted.

 

[rrobs]

No, few religions try to explain God. This is the obsession of the Abrahamic religions, and even they don't "explain" god, they just posit his existence and squabble about his laws and how to appease him.
It must be a pretty incompetent god. His "explanations" have yielded little but war and divisiveness. You'd think a god could explain himself clearly and ensure his word was not corrupted.

God was clear. He wants us to treat others as we would have them treat us.

If we followed the scriptures, nobody would lack their basic needs, because God said to share one's wealth. This is not a government mandate or law. It should be done out of the pure kindness of one's heart. How different the world would be if we did just that one little thing!

Also racism would go the way of the dinosaurs. The scriptures say that all people share in one blood and one breath. Has your government or enlightened professor ever told you that? I bet not.

I know there was lots of war in the OT, but all those things were not God's inner desire. They were necessary to bring Jesus into play, so that we could all love one another.

The devil tried his best to stop the bloodline of Jesus by using people to attempt to eliminate Israel, and thus Jesus from being born and correcting the problem Adam caused.

Who do you think is the greatest villain that has lived in the recent past? Hitler? Stalin? Pol Pot? Mao Tse Tung? Between those four guys, we have around 100,000,000 innocent men, women and children murdered. Would you think it OK to have killed those four monsters to have saved the lives of 100,000,000 people? Well, that's what God had to do to keep the bloodline intact.

Now the the New Testament is in play, God can tell us His true desire for mankind, i.e. that we love one another.

1 Cor 13:4-8,

4 Love is patient, is kind, love does not envy, love does not boast, is not puffed up,

5 does not behave indecently, does not seek its own, is not provoked, reckons not the evil,

6 does not rejoice over the unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth,

7 it covers all, believes all, expects all, endures all.

8 Love never fails. And whether there be prophecies, they shall be inactive; or tongues, they shall cease; or knowledge, it shall be inactive.
​

That is God's ultimate plan and desire for mankind. The other stuff was just an unfortunate necessity to bring about the good. You have to wonder why the non-believers always bring up the bad without also showing the good.

You must also understand that God gave man free will. They had the ability to choose between obeying God or not. Love is not possible without free will. Also, God put man in charge of the earth.

Gen 1:26,

And Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over all the earth and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the ground.”​

I know popular opinion is that God is in charge, but this verse clearly says He relinquished His control to man.

Man screwed things up, not God. God had to inspire people to bring about Jesus' birth. It would be like herding 1,000,000 cats across the desert. Given the task, I think He did as good as could have been done.

Before condemning God for things people say He did, perhaps you might want to have a good handle on what the scriptures actually say. Unfortunately, it's hard to get from the orthodox church. I could show you at least a dozen places in The New Testament where Paul, inspired by God, said the truth was already getting screwed up. And that was before Paul even died, some 2,000 years ago.

Orthodox church doctrine is way closer to Greek philosophy and Egyptian mysticism than it is to the actual scriptures. Compare church history with the scriptures, and you'll find a huge difference between them.

The upshot, be careful about who you blame for the woes of this world. Man is the problem, not God. God begs us to do the right thing, but the churches don't teach what that right thing really is. They teach myths and fables. It's that simple.

 

[exchemist]

What's the evidence for that? What was your testing method?

The conflict, obviously.

 

[rrobs]

The conflict, obviously.

There is no proof that the conflict is caused by the scriptures. The conflict arises because people don't read what's written.

As an example, how many ways could what I just said be understood? Seems to me, my assertion is pretty simple. One may argue with the assertion itself, but at least we know exactly what that assertion is. The scriptures are the same way.

Language can be as precise as a surgeons scalpel. God says every single word in the scriptures has been purified seven times. In other words, He was incredibly precise in what He meant to say. Unfortunately, few Christians read them with the same care. Most already "know" what they say before ever cracking the book itself.

Read Paul's epistles and you will find several places where he said people were already straying from the truth. Unfortunately, that has not stopped since the day 2,000 years ago when God first inspired him to write that. The church teaches more Greek philosophy and Egyptian mysticism (three gods in one being a prime example), than the actual scriptures. With time and effort on the student's part, I can prove that to anybody who wants to know. It's not difficult at all. It only requires abandoning all those things that people, Christian or not, already "know" about the scriptures.

God says to love and treat others as ourselves. Do you see that happening with any regularity? Looks more like one half of the population hates the other. Whose fault it that? God's? I don't think so!

Read post #86 in this thread for more detail.

 

[exchemist]

There is no proof that the conflict is caused by the scriptures. The conflict arises because people don't read what's written.

As an example, how many ways could what I just said be understood? Seems to me, my assertion is pretty simple. One may argue with the assertion itself, but at least we know exactly what that assertion is. The scriptures are the same way.

Language can be as precise as a surgeons scalpel. God says every single word in the scriptures has been purified seven times. In other words, He was incredibly precise in what He meant to say. Unfortunately, few Christians read them with the same care. Most already "know" what they say before ever cracking the book itself.

Read Paul's epistles and you will find several places where he said people were already straying from the truth. Unfortunately, that has not stopped since the day 2,000 years ago when God first inspired him to write that. The church teaches more Greek philosophy and Egyptian mysticism (three gods in one being a prime example), than the actual scriptures. With time and effort on the student's part, I can prove that to anybody who wants to know. It's not difficult at all. It only requires abandoning all those things that people, Christian or not, already "know" about the scriptures.

God says to love and treat others as ourselves. Do you see that happening with any regularity? Looks more like one half of the population hates the other. Whose fault it that? God's? I don't think so!

Read post #86 in this thread for more detail.

Post 86 misses @Valjean's point entirely, as it merely rambles on about some bits of Christian scripture.

 

[rrobs]

Post 86 misses @Valjean's point entirely, as it merely rambles on about some bits of Christian scripture.

I don't know what you consider "misses the point entirely." He averred that God was incompetent and that He was the cause of war. I answered that assertion head on with the scriptures.

I would venture to say that what you call "rambling" is actually some of the finest truth ever presented to you. I also can't help but notice you did not care to squarely address any of the particular scriptures I mentioned.

Why didn't you tell me why you think 1 Corinthians would not be the answer to war, racism, greed, and a myriad of other "niceties" of man's natural inclination? Is it because you are unable to counter the truth with logic? It seems you prefer personal insults (accusing someone of "rambling" is an insult). I don't mind, but it certainly doesn't advance your argument. But then again, I think people in general have long since abandoned logic for emotion what debating controversial topics. Still, I'll bet you are better than that. At least that's what I'd like to think.

Take care

 

[Valjean]

I don't know what you consider "misses the point entirely." He averred that God was incompetent and that He was the cause of war. I answered that assertion head on with the scriptures.

I averred nothing. I proposed a corollary of your assertion, to illustrate a problem with it, and religious differences, as a casus belli, is pretty obvious, historically.








+



Take care[/QUOTE]

 

[rrobs]

I averred nothing. I proposed a corollary of your assertion, to illustrate a problem with it, and religious differences, as a casus belli, is pretty obvious, historically.

I agreed with you about religion. I think I was clear in my condemnation of the orthodox church, which does indeed have a huge, if not virtually total, impact on society. It doesn't take a genius to see that the words that come from pulpits every Sunday has failed to make people see the value of love. We still see war, racism, inequality, etc.

However, I went on to offer a replacement for religion, i.e. the scriptures.

Can you read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 with an open mind and then tell me that if people really did what it said, the world wouldn't be a much better place? If so, I'd really love to hear why not. If you're going to do that though, stick with the scriptures only. Try to separate religion from truth. There is a difference.

 

[exchemist]

I don't know what you consider "misses the point entirely." He averred that God was incompetent and that He was the cause of war. I answered that assertion head on with the scriptures.

I would venture to say that what you call "rambling" is actually some of the finest truth ever presented to you. I also can't help but notice you did not care to squarely address any of the particular scriptures I mentioned.

Why didn't you tell me why you think 1 Corinthians would not be the answer to war, racism, greed, and a myriad of other "niceties" of man's natural inclination? Is it because you are unable to counter the truth with logic? It seems you prefer personal insults (accusing someone of "rambling" is an insult). I don't mind, but it certainly doesn't advance your argument. But then again, I think people in general have long since abandoned logic for emotion what debating controversial topics. Still, I'll bet you are better than that. At least that's what I'd like to think.

Take care

You are still missing the point, which was about the conflict between scriptures from different religions. To an outsider, the conflicts between the teachings of different religions can seem to make a case for no religion being right about anything. Why believe one and not another? Why believe any of them?

 

[Samantha Rinne]

Humans are naturally altruistic within their own perceived tribes. Self-sacrifice is automatic, unthinking. It's a relic of our pleistocene, band-based, hunter-gatherer evolution development.

Love, as an abstract concept, is not a hard-wired behavior.

Love is not altruism.

Ayn Rand explains the difference.

Love is wanting to love others and be loved. To do for others, out of a concern for them.

Altruism voids concern and instead asks a person put aside self for something like Justice or Equality or any other high-sounding principle. The problem is, not only do you get exploited but you can easily sacrifice hoping someone will change. Adolf Hitler? The abuser beating you up? No, the more you do for them, the more you grow to hate yourself. And altruism doesn't stop. The logical conclusion of such "love" is your death.

People like to hold Jesus up as a model of altruism. But what he taught others to do was love others as yourself. If you do not love yourself, you cannot respect yourself enough to know when to walk if you're mistreated. This doesn't mean you hate those who do so. You forgive them, but if they neither respect you nor other people, you have self respect.

 

[rrobs]

You are still missing the point, which was about the conflict between scriptures from different religions. To an outsider, the conflicts between the teachings of different religions can seem to make a case for no religion being right about anything. Why believe one and not another? Why believe any of them?

Now I know why you don't believe the scriptures; you don't read them any more than you read my posts.

Have you not seen that I agree with you on religions? I'll say it again, I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT RELIGIONS! THEY ALL SUCK!

As I said, the scriptures are written at a 6th grade level. It's mans stupidity that apparently can't grasp simple words when it comes to the scriptures, but I think you are more intelligent than that. So, getting past religion and getting into the scriptures, any thoughts on how 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 might make the world a better place? The words there are not very difficult.

 

[exchemist]

Now I know why you don't believe the scriptures; you don't read them any more than you read my posts.

Have you not seen that I agree with you on religions? I'll say it again, I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT RELIGIONS! THEY ALL SUCK!

As I said, the scriptures are written at a 6th grade level. It's mans stupidity that apparently can't grasp simple words when it comes to the scriptures, but I think you are more intelligent than that. So, getting past religion and getting into the scriptures, any thoughts on how 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 might make the world a better place? The words there are not very difficult.

Mate, I am trying to explain to you @Valjean's point. It is not my point. It was his point.

Bu never mind, the trail has gone cold by now.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You are still missing the point, which was about the conflict between scriptures from different religions. To an outsider, the conflicts between the teachings of different religions can seem to make a case for no religion being right about anything. Why believe one and not another? Why believe any of them?

I find as the people migrated away from ancient Babylon they spread world wide their religious-myth ideas as practices into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
This is why we find elements of such Babylonian worship to be the same or their similar basic religious teachings found throughout the world today.
Part of this modern monstrosity is called 'Christendom' (so-called weed/tares Christian) and can trace its beginning way back to before the first century.
Mankind's religious family tree is thus based on fractured disunited sects or denominations because they have the same religious 'mother' (Babylon).
Jesus exposed ( and exposes ) false religious Babylonian ideas which conflict with his teachings.

 

[exchemist]

I find as the people migrated away from ancient Babylon they spread world wide their religious-myth ideas as practices into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
This is why we find elements of such Babylonian worship to be the same or their similar basic religious teachings found throughout the world today.
Part of this modern monstrosity is called 'Christendom' (so-called weed/tares Christian) and can trace its beginning way back to before the first century.
Mankind's religious family tree is thus based on fractured disunited sects or denominations because they have the same religious 'mother' (Babylon).
Jesus exposed ( and exposes ) false religious Babylonian ideas which conflict with his teachings.

Utterly irrelevant to my post, not surprisingly.

 

[nPeace]

I agreed with you about religion. I think I was clear in my condemnation of the orthodox church, which does indeed have a huge, if not virtually total, impact on society. It doesn't take a genius to see that the words that come from pulpits every Sunday has failed to make people see the value of love. We still see war, racism, inequality, etc.

However, I went on to offer a replacement for religion, i.e. the scriptures.

Can you read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 with an open mind and then tell me that if people really did what it said, the world wouldn't be a much better place? If so, I'd really love to hear why not. If you're going to do that though, stick with the scriptures only. Try to separate religion from truth. There is a difference.

Is it this same letter, Paul said Jesus is the head of the body - the Christian congregation, or Church? Isn't that religion though?

Does the problem not lie with false religion, rather than religion itself?
Jesus did say that God approves of true worshipers, and love wold be an identifying mark of these. John 4:23, 24; John 13:35 See James 1:27

I would propose that if anyone wants to know the truth, the scriptures contain it.

 

[rrobs]

Is it this same letter, Paul said Jesus is the head of the body - the Christian congregation, or Church? Isn't that religion though?

Does the problem not lie with false religion, rather than religion itself?
Jesus did say that God approves of true worshipers, and love wold be an identifying mark of these. John 4:23, 24; John 13:35 See James 1:27

I would propose that if anyone wants to know the truth, the scriptures contain it.

I always think of religion as man trying to explain God. It's like the Model-T trying to explain Henry Ford.

The scriptures, on the other hand, are God explaining Himself to us. They do say that we are one body with Christ as the head. God makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 1:10 that He wants us all united. The fact that we have 40,000 different denominations is enough evidence that the church has fallen far from what God wants.

I think you are absolutely right in saying that if one wants to know the truth, they must go to the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures.

Take care.