1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured What is God's Plan for Us?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Curst Saden, Sep 15, 2019.

  1. Curst Saden

    Curst Saden New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2019
    Messages:
    2
    Ratings:
    +6
    Religion:
    I believe in a higher power, but beyond that I'm not sure
    One thing that I've always had trouble accepting is that people who do not believe in the "true" religion will suffer in hell for eternity. I have been told that it's our choice: either we choose God or we choose to be apart from Him and we reap what we sow.

    But if God is really all-knowing, then God should know the future. This means that God should be aware that billions of people will never choose his true religion, for various reasons. No matter how many signs or mercies God sends upon these people, they will not choose the true religion unless God hijacks their free will. So...why would God test people when He already knows who will be burning in hell forever? Why create people who He knows from the start will receive eternal damnation? Why is God so intent on receiving our worship when He doesn't actually benefit from it?

    I have a hard time linking this with the concept of a loving God. Can someone please help me here?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Messages:
    5,548
    Ratings:
    +2,710
    Religion:
    None
    Welcome aboard, have you considered that until you demonstrate the existence of god(s) your question is irrelevant.
     
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24,075
    Ratings:
    +7,957
    I honestly would put everything you hear from others aside. They do not define your relationship with god. That said, what do You think?

    Usually, people who believe in god come to their conclusions by Their reading and understanding and proof of what they feel god tells them.

    Does god tell you that you will suffer if you (or people) don't believe?
    Do you hold the bible literal; and, do you take the bible as truth as god himself?

    How do you differentiate what's true for yourself and with your god?

    There are many people who feel god will save all people because they feel god is love. Love doesn't have that black/white; that's politics and power. Spirituality doesn't put people down. So, I'd look more into the good part of god. Maybe what people tell you about his "bad" side is defusing who he actually is to ALL people not just those who choose to believe.

    The creator isn't owned by a religion.

    Do you believe people will go to hell for eternity?
    Did god tell you this or people?

    I don't know how it helps people spiritually to agree with god to let people go to hell without believing in him. That sounds like internal power and control.

    Since you're asking questions, you don't have to go through with all of that. Love has no power over people. Maybe a good question is: how do I live to not be separated from god. How will I be NOW if I were not with god.

    Each person has their own spiritual journey. If god is love and you see god is love, in my opinion, there would be no hell vs. heaven. Unless god tells you there is, why not forget it? People will follow whatever we follow.

    As long as you see a positive outcome, I think maybe that's what god wants. Even if people don't live forever because of disbelief, maybe seeing them as not existing anymore would sound better than the christian/catholic view of hell?

    Depends on what god tells you not people.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    6,875
    Ratings:
    +1,364
    I think the basic answer to your question, from my understanding is that God created humanity as a whole. In other words, God did not create isolated individuals. Although, each person is unique and special, each person is also related to many others, such as mothers, fathers brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, grandparents, etc. The ones who refuse to be in a loving, eternal relationship with God could not have been eliminated from being created without then also eliminating all those connected to them through family relationship who do choose to love God. Even though God knows there are those who refuse, they nevertheless had every opportunity given to them from God for eternal life in glory.

    I think when it comes to worship, that just means love and we were created to be in a loving relationship with the Creator. So it is we who need to worship and love God, as nothing less will ultimately bring peace, joy, or complete fulfillment.

    Just my thoughts.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    2,233
    Ratings:
    +1,066
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    If god exists it is a an evil psycho!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Messages:
    2,161
    Ratings:
    +1,395
    Religion:
    Baha'i inspired liberal
    Hi Curst,
    Perhaps you don’t really need help. A loving God wouldn’t burn people forever, the traditional version of hell is made up nonsense by primitive men who were vengeful and attributed their spiteful vengeful ways to God without really thinking God’s loving nature through.

    I think God likes worship, but is not petty about it like the primitive men who wrote about God believed. God will grant salvation to all those who develop a virtuous character regardless of whether or not they worship God.

    People who don’t develop virtue will only be subject to reformative treatment in the afterlife, their suffering will not be eternal in my opinion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Heyo

    Heyo Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    252
    Ratings:
    +185
    Religion:
    none
    If the future can be known, then we live in a deterministic universe. (No god required or excluded.)
    In a deterministic universe there is no free will. (Not even a god would have free will.)
    That is the primary contradiction in your thinking. You have to get rid of omniscience (determinism) or you have to get rid of "free will" (even the free will of your god). Without that decision you will turn in circles forever.
     
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    7,209
    Ratings:
    +1,716
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Imagine we're in a computer game, certain characters are known trolls, they come on the game to have fun; you watch them misbehave to test the boundaries, and know ultimately they will rob you in the process, yet you help them learn regardless.

    This is the same with our reality, the Source sees the end of time already, and who will choose to be infinite consciousness by studying religious origins.
    The reality is an Infinite Improbability Drive, the characters are self originated; therefore who knows what reactions might be needing to take place for it all to work to the infinite future we create.

    They've chosen to walk away from the Source, it isn't hard to study, people are just stubborn broken robots.
    The Source isn't determined on worship, clergy make a business out of it....

    It really is about connection, Yoga means to connect to the Divine, and this has been lost by religiousness; we no longer see we are all quantum code in the Matrix, and we are lost without connection to the central core.
    To unconditionally love, we have to be wise enough to reconnect to the core; many of us down here follow evil without questioning it, as we all have issues with our comprehension of morality.

    Thus religious tests/texts are originated to make us question; so people have gone opposite to those as well...

    Many of the texts say we're down near Hell, and yet many think they're saints; thus it is all an elaborate test to see who is paying attention.

    So you have the Source of reality inspiring the right ideas, and people being like stubborn children walking away.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  9. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    20,547
    Ratings:
    +1,676
    Religion:
    •Lord God•
    Probably better to consider the implications of an eternal hell,instead of questioning it.
     
  10. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    2,233
    Ratings:
    +1,066
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Of course one should question such an unlikely notion.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

    Joined:
    May 5, 2007
    Messages:
    19,750
    Ratings:
    +7,832
    Religion:
    I am an advaitist Hindu pagan and a strong atheist.
    If you start with a fallacy as premise, you will never know the truth.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,948
    Ratings:
    +5,226
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    If that was true, then he would not be a loving God...he would be an evil despot.
    When the sons of Israel adopted the heinous practice of sacrificing their children in the fire to a foreign god, this is what the true God said....

    "For the children of Judah have done that which is evil in my sight, saith Jehovah: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to defile it.
    31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind.
    " (Jeremiah 7:30-31)

    If God deemed their behavior to be an "abomination", then why would he do it himself?

    That is exactly true. Free will has to be free.

    After the apostle Paul had performed a miracle, the people's response troubled them...

    "When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in the Lyc·a·oʹni·an language: “The gods have become like humans and have come down to us!12 And they started calling Barʹna·bas Zeus, but Paul Herʹmes, since he was taking the lead in speaking. 13 And the priest of Zeus, whose temple was at the entrance of the city, brought bulls and garlands to the gates and wanted to offer sacrifices with the crowds.

    14 However, when the apostles Barʹna·bas and Paul heard of it, they ripped their garments and leaped out into the crowd and cried out: 15 Men, why are you doing these things? We too are humans having the same infirmities as you have. And we are declaring the good news to you, for you to turn from these vain things to the living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them. 16 In past generations he permitted all the nations to go on in their ways, 17 although he did not leave himself without witness in that he did good, giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying you with food and filling your hearts with gladness.” 18 And yet despite saying these things, they barely restrained the crowds from sacrificing to them
    ." (Acts 14:11-18)

    This demonstrates that people who are intent on their beliefs will make excuses to keep them. No matter what signs or miracles are given to prove otherwise.
    Israel has so many signs and wonders from God after their release from Egypt, but they still disobeyed him.

    Jesus' own words at Matthew 24:37-39 also highlight man's propensity to believe as he wishes...not as God wishes. He used the days of Noah as an example of what would happen again. No one took any notice of Noah and at the end times people will take no notice again. :(

    There is no such thing as eternal damnation. The nation of Israel had no choice of heaven or hell ever offered to them....only life or death. There were no other choices. (Deuteronomy 30:17-20)

    Eternal life has an opposite...eternal death. That makes God a just judge and the punishment fits the crime.
    What were Adam and his wife told would happen to them if they disobeyed God's order not to take the fruit of the only tree that God claimed as his own in Eden?
    "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) No heaven or hell...just life or death.

    A loving God is a just God. He will judge people by their choices. He offers life to the obedient ones, but the incorrigibly wicked, he will eliminate from existence. It will be as if they never existed. Since these are the ones who would cause trouble for the righteous ones, God simply withdraws their right to live. He gives life and he can take it away from undeserving ones.

    That is how I see things.

    Welcome to RF, BTW. :)
     
  13. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    2,233
    Ratings:
    +1,066
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    There is nothing loving about the Biblical god, it is an evil despot which should be exterminated if it actually exists, which is unlikely.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    1,220
    Ratings:
    +187
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    By what I know, it is not about choosing right religion. It is about truth and righteousness, because:

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 6:23

    This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
    John 3:19-21

    Righteous person speaks truth in his heart. And eternal life is for righteous people. It is possible that person can be counted righteous, even if he has not yet heard of Jesus, because:

    For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
    Romans 2:12-16

    Righteousness, wisdom of the just, is like right understanding and attitude that makes person do right actions. That is why I believe life is for them. They know how to live well and therefore are suitable for life. Unrighteous people would make life eternal suffering, if they would be allowed to live eternally. I don’t see any reason why it would be good to allow unrighteous people to live eternally, even if they would be in their own place freely and so that they could not cause damage to righteous people.
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    12,013
    Ratings:
    +1,645
    First of all, I think we are all free to act responsibly toward God.

    Biblical hell is temporary. The temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
    False clergy teach a permanent religious-myth hell of burning forever.
    When the King James Version translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire that put the flames in hell.
    Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever Not burning forever.
    Can anyone think of anyone righteous that went to the Bible's hell ______________
    On the day righteous Jesus died he went to biblical hell aka the grave - Acts 2:27
    If the Bible's hell was a permanent place Jesus would still be there.
    Jesus and the OT both teach sleep (Not pain) in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
    God does know the future. Not our personal future, we have a choice in that.
    God does know the future for Earth. Earth abides forever as per Ecclesiastes 1:4 B
    As to who will be part of that abiding Earth remains to be seen.
    We are nearing a soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as per Jesus' words at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
    There will be a great crowd of people who will be separated to become part of calendar Day One of Jesus coming 1,000-year reign over Earth.
    At that millennial time there will be ' healing ' for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2; Revelation 7:14; Revelation 7:9.
    This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
    Come and bring heavenly benefits to Earth for us.
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    12,013
    Ratings:
    +1,645
    I find James speaks about the right religion at James 1:27
    To look after widows and orphans in their time of trouble and keep free of spot from the world.
    So, as Jesus and his apostles were truly neutral in world affairs so also would his followers today be neutral.
    I find the 'eternal punishment' is being forever separated from God as per 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
    Separated as in becoming truly extinct because the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' as per Psalms 92:7.
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    12,013
    Ratings:
    +1,645
    I see you post a pretty picture of a lovely house.
    If you rented your house and the renters ruined your house would you keep them on as occupants___________
    If your house become infested with rats would you burn down your house or have the rats exterminated _______
    It is only the wicked who will be 'destroyed forever ' ( exterminated ) as per Psalms 92:7
    Then there will be justice for upright or righteous people.
    Or, as Psalms 37:9-11 says that meek people will inherit the Earth.......
    Not a ruined Earth, because those ruining Earth will be brought to ruin - Revelation 11:18 B.
    There will be ' healing ' for earth's nations as described at Revelation 22:2.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    12,013
    Ratings:
    +1,645
    I know of No eternal hell.
    False clergy teach about eternal hell, but in the Bible there is No eternal hell.
    Biblical hell is temporary and comes to a final end in a symbolic ' second death 'or emptied-out biblical hell.
    Emptied out because everyone in the Bible's hell will be ' delivered up ' ( resurrected out of hell ) then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into that symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell - Revelation 20:13-14.

    The implications of biblical hell is that the Bible's hell is simply mankind's stone-cold temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
    This is why Scripture teaches ' sleep ' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
    Sleep in death until Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming millennium-long day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2015
    Messages:
    2,233
    Ratings:
    +1,066
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    That house was my childhood home. My late father used to shoot the rats which infested the place. However, that has nothing to do with the nonsense book of Revelation.
     
  20. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    1,220
    Ratings:
    +187
    Religion:
    Disciple of Jesus
    That is a good point. I think that is what righteous person does. But I wouldn’t call it religion, because it is not done religiously, but because of love and because person has the right understanding. :)

    I think it is good to be neutral in that sense we are not violent. But I think it is god to tell, if something is wrong. After all, Jesus also told what is wrong.

    Good scriptures, I agree with them. :)
     
Loading...