1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured What is God responsible for?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Feb 4, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,559
    Ratings:
    +6,422
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Yes, I live in the dark tunnel and only come out for air on occasion, till next time. :(
    I can only hope that next time won't come as soon as it did this time. In retrospect, it should not have caught me off guard but I was trying so hard to survive that I guess I was hoping for the best, although a part of me knew it would not be as I hoped. I just did not know when or how it would end.
    Thanks, that helped a whole lot. I can live with your description of God and it gave me something to think about:
    "God is like an anvil: cold and hard it doesn't feel loving, but it will shoe your horse, bar your gate and make fine jewelry. You need it, and it doesn't need you. It is unyielding. It is black and grey."
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  2. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2020
    Messages:
    696
    Ratings:
    +228
    1. All members of the Religious Forum are touched by your loss. I've lost cats too so your sadness is also mine.

    2. We all grieve in our own way. You don't know what your husband feels, nor should you blame him. Perhaps you are right about your husband's coldness. Carry on the best you can, regardless.

    3.

    More cats might be COVID-19 positive than first believed, study suggests: Study shows cats are fighting off the virus with naturally developed antibodies; however, they could be at risk of reinfection

    Cats contract COVID.

    https://www.embracepetinsurance.com/waterbowl/article/climate-change-and-pet-health

    Climate change affects cats, dogs

    Pets displaced by storms intensified by Global Warming, and ticks and flees that spread lime disease on the rise due to Global Warming add to the cat mortality stats.

    4. Never grieve if you've done all you can. Nor grieve if you made a mistake..what's done is done. Contemplate the best next decision, and prepare for disaster.

    5. grief passes with time. Talking or writing helps. Many find comfort in faith.

    6. God is omnipotent, but doesn't answer prayers of cancer victims nor does he help. When you can see future events, all events blur into history (we know a lot of horrible history yet we don't grieve over the dead of the Revolutionary War). God doesn't stop death, nor comfort the bereaved. He does, however, tell us how to live and how to handle grief. God did not stop the torture and death of his child (Jesus). It is also likely that God had taken away the powers of Jesus, preventing him from getting off the cross.

    7. I think that you are right about God allowing suffering so he's not loving. But, if he isn't loving, what sense does it make to want to sit beside him in heaven (perhaps for eternity)? If it is merely about the worship of power (without caring if that power is good), then why not worship the massive power of Satan? Clearly we should only worship a good God.

    8. Revelation makes it very clear that COVID (Revelation 15 (seven plagues)) is God's punishment for attacking Babylon, Iraq . We should not expect God to lift his punishment merely because we pray.The time to be faithful (and obey God's commandment not to kill) was when President W. Bush had declared war on Iraq (innocent of terrorism).

    9. God likes to hide. If he didn't hide, we would all have to believe, and therefore free will (including the will not to believe) would be gone. God gave divine insight about not attacking Iraq to his modern psychics. All warned not to attack Iraq, but all were ignored. The psychics of God were very well meaning.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    7,896
    Ratings:
    +4,757
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    What is God responsible for? Everything.

    When you're omnipotent, NOTHING happens without your approval.

    If it does, you're not omnipotent.

    Sorry 'bout your cat, though.
     
    #23 blü 2, Feb 5, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    2,365
    Ratings:
    +1,374
    Hi, Trailblazer its been a long time :D

    Sorry about the lost of your cats, hope you are hanging in there. :(

    However you might find this interesting.
    [​IMG]
    Does Having Children Make People Happier in the Long Run?

    As you can see, at least based on this study, women without children are doing fairly well or at least equally as bad as those with children are in regards happiness, so one might get the impression that the grass is always greener on the other side :) Anyway thought you might find it interesting reading.

    Because I think a lot of people believe that those without are somehow more miserable off due to this, but actually it seems that more people which doesn't have children, in general, seem to be quite happy about this.

    If it was as you said that "He made it so that people with children would be rewarded and childless people would suffer." then the % of those with children ought to be visibly higher compared to those without, but that doesn't seem to be the case. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Ostronomos

    Ostronomos Active Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    334
    Ratings:
    +66
    Religion:
    None

    God is powerless to interfere with the material dynamic of reality as God is not a material object. He cannot make surgical alterations to you or your cat. He cannot heal broken bones. He cannot prevent you from dying of a horrible disease. The only apparent signs of His presence in our world is through electromagnetic radiation and dreams, or upon death. The reason is simple; we are cut off from interacting with Him unless we are either dreaming or in an altered state of consciousness. This does not however preclude God from scientific explanation. Rather, science must evolve to a point beyond its present stage in order to have any hope of aiding you and your cat. The onus is on humanity and you, not God. Our imperfections are thus not a reason to deny the existence of God as there is an inescapable logic that demonstrates His existence through science.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    30,959
    Ratings:
    +11,768
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    I have friend who once had a lot of cats. I was surprised, because he was always complaining about them. He had around seven, and he lived in a trailer. I believe what happened was that one of the cats got pregnant, and that was how he had so many. He got them fixed after that litter, but I was surprised that he kept all of them. I understand better, now. At the time I didn't realize how difficult it was to give cats away. One guy, kind of solitary, in a trailer with cats. This did not help him get dates.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,559
    Ratings:
    +6,422
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I don't want to be anywhere near God in heaven, so I probably won't go to heaven, since in my religion heaven means nearness to God. Maybe I will change how I feel before I die, I don't know. I am working on it.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,559
    Ratings:
    +6,422
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Agreed.
    Thanks.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,559
    Ratings:
    +6,422
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Yes, it has been a long time, and I have been wondering if I would ever see you again. :( I was even worried you might have contracted Covid-19. Good to see you as always :) even though it has to be under these sad circumstances.:(
    Thanks for thinking of me. Actually, I am surprised by this study. I skimmed through it but I will read it more intently as soon as I have time. I found this first paragraph interesting, comparing the United States to some other countries:

    "An enduring finding of the social science literature is that parents are less happy than childless adults. Most of the studies reporting this finding have relied on data from the United States, and a recent analysis of data from 22 countries by sociologist Jennifer Glass and colleagues puts American results in perspective.1 Nowhere is the parental happiness gap larger than in the United States. Indeed, American parents are notably less happy here than are their Anglophone relatives in England and Australia. In some countries, most notably Norway and Hungary, parents are actually happier than non-parents."
    I can always count on my atheist friends to be logical. :D The thing is, religion is what brainwashes people into thinking they have to be fruitful and multiply, and this is seen as a moral responsibility. Sorry to say that this is not only in the Bible, but it is a Baha'i injunction, one I obviously did not adhere to. Not only did I not want children when I was younger, I considered it my moral responsibility NOT to have any children, given my husband and I were both ill-equipped because of our own deficient childhoods. It was difficult enough just being married, and it still is even after over 35 years, but that is another sad story. :(

    Needless to say, many people look down upon childless couples and consider them selfish, I remember reading a study about this back when I was in grad school for my psychology degree. I think maybe that is becoming less so as more and more people choose not to have children, but there is still a stigma attached to that decision if it was voluntary. Also, when I look around and see that most people my age had children (I wonder what the statistics are on that) so they also have children and even great grandchildren, it makes me feel very much alone. :(

    Another thing is that people with children have them to fall back on in old age, to care for them if need be. Fortunately we have so much money that will not be an issue because I could afford a caregiver if I remained in my home, but most people are not that fortunate. For many people in the United States all they have to live on is their Social Security, but most of those people have children to fall back on. Yes, God designed it that way, so those who did His bidding and had children would reap the benefits in the long run.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,559
    Ratings:
    +6,422
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    As a Baha'i, this is essentially what I believe. God is unknowable and unreachable and far beyond human understanding, and certainly God is not a material being. It says in the Baha'i Writings that God can answer prayers and will 'sometimes' do so, only at His discretion, but HOW God effects any changes in this world is a complete mystery. This whole idea that some atheists have that God is omnipotent so God can do anything is to me rather childlike, but it is based upon a misunderstanding os God so it is not blameworthy.
    That sounds interesting. Can you explain how you think God' s existence could ever be demonstrated through science? How could that help my cat? All living creatures are destined to die someday, that is the inescapable reality. I see no way around that. God designed it that way and that is why I blame Him and although I realize I am being rather juvenile, these are just my feelings.

    Could God have designed it to be different wherein humans and animals never died? What would be the point? The only thing good about that is that people would never have to grieve the loss of a loved one. I certainly would not want to live forever in a physical body on this earth. Because of what my religion teaches I know the reasons why we have to start out in this physical world and live here until we die and enter the spiritual world, and these reasons make sense, but that does not mean I have to like living through this life, which for me has been mostly suffering. And knowing there is something better that awaits me only makes it worse that I have to remain here one minute longer.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,559
    Ratings:
    +6,422
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    My husband was one guy in a trailer with a bunch of big snakes and that did not get him any dates at all! He was a bachelor till age 42 and It was my mother and sister who got him hooked up with me.

    Seven cats is not a lot of cats but I guess it seems that way to most people. We now have only seven cats and that is the least number of cats we have had for 20 years. I plan to get another cat so we will be back to eight cats, as soon as I can find one. I wanted 10 but I will not go lower than eight. Persian cats are scarcer than hen's teeth, almost impossible to find to purchase as adults, even though I have plenty of money.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2020
    Messages:
    1,871
    Ratings:
    +3,436
    Religion:
    Hindu
    I can say my experiences of being a parent in the US has lead me to believe parents are not nice to each other. We judge first, ask questions later.

    Another factor in this could be the way parents behave based off of that. We often bend over backwards trying to make it look like our children or our parenting is a certain way, to the detriment of our happiness(and sometimes our children's happiness, too).
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    30,959
    Ratings:
    +11,768
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    :p A snake person and a cat person!
     
  14. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2014
    Messages:
    2,415
    Ratings:
    +462
    Religion:
    Faithful Jesus believer
    May your kitten rest in divine peace.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,559
    Ratings:
    +6,422
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    He is no longer a snake person. He always liked cats better than any other animals but he could not have cats in his small trailer. Now we have a big house, a house that is too big for only seven cats, so I have to get at least one more cat, and the sooner the better. :);)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  16. capumetu

    capumetu Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2016
    Messages:
    680
    Ratings:
    +126
    Religion:
    Jehovah's witness
    May I suggest maam that you watch this video: https://www.jw.org/en/library/books...llows-evil-and-suffering/video-why-suffering/
     
  17. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    2,365
    Ratings:
    +1,374
    I have been a bit busy with other things so haven't been a lot on the forums lately. But besides that everything is fine, haven't contracted covid yet, at least not that I know :D

    But it sounds like you are struggling, which is sad to hear :(

    I think its because its more like its a "given" or what to say, something that people don't really think about, because clearly THAT is the way to go, to get that happy little family and those that don't or choose not to, must be miserably. I don't have any kids and don't want any either. I see benefits from having kids, but also a lot of downsides, the amount of time you have to spend on them is not something I especially desire, and it's mostly because I value to much to not be bound by others, and be able to do what I want, when I want it.
    Im not a person that especially like or constantly have to be around others, to be honest it annoys me constantly having to do things, that I feel I need to do, rather than me doing them because I want to :D
    Might be because I grew up in a family where my home was ran sort of like a hotel for my parents friends and my family, that constantly had to sleep over etc. It was an extremely active family, which was fun, but also just gets to much, so maybe that ultimately broke me, I don't know :D

    But getting a bit side tracked, Obviously, people can be very happy in both scenarios, you can have very bad families where it's just awful conditions, and they might appear happy on the outside, but ultimately they are in a complicated situation, with kids, school, job, relationship issue, could be financial as well, personal issues etc. So its not as easy for these people to just say "screw it" and do what the hell they want, having no kids a lot of these issues just vanish obviously. But if you are one of those, which end up in a good relationship and get the "dream", and make it function, obviously that is very good. It just depends on what people want.

    Well can't disagree with that :D

    Religion are a bit old school and was from a time of "partly" ignorance about the world in which we lived, the whole way that society worked, women at home, men and kids working and where you in a lot of cases required a lot of kids, as it weren't uncommon that they died early on from diseases, little to no protection against getting pregnancies etc. So lots of things played a huge role.

    But today it is a fact that a lot of people, especially since women have started to aim for their own careers, better medicine etc. that a lot gets fewer and some chooses not to get any kids at all. Life is not all about religion, it also need to function in a modern society and the conditions are simply not the same as they were back then. But obviously scriptures move thousands of years behind the rest of the society so it takes some time for them to catch up :)

    I don't personally get that feeling, at least not here in Denmark. If any I think it's more that some people that really want kids, don't understand why everyone else doesn't want them either. Which is very common in regards to a lot of things really and not only that.

    But right off the top of my head, I can count at least 6 amongst friends and family, which doesn't have children. And only one of them, which I think would have liked them, but didn't. So it's not 50/50, but in general in my circle of people, its rather common to be honest.

    Then you have people like Ricky Gervais, a stand up comedian. Despite being an atheist, probably share a lot of reasons with you and others in why he doesn't want children, obviously with a joking attitude, because that is just how he is :).

    After joking about different reasons not to have kids, he said: "I'd worry sick about a baby. I have a cat and I worry about that. I check the door three times before I go out. I put food and water in every room in case the door closes and he's peckish for 20 minutes."

    The Extras actor also listed some other reasons why he and his partner, Jane Fallon, haven't had children. He said: "There's loads of reasons why I don't have kids. The world is overpopulated, no one's sitting around going, 'Oh Rick's not going to have kids, we're going to run out, there's loads!'" He also joked that children are "scroungers", adding: "From day one it's me me me."

    Ellen DeGeneres agreed, adding that she thought anyone who rescues animals is a "hero". Ricky is a known animal rights activist, and spoke about his love for them on the chat show. Speaking about his new stand-up, Humanity, he said: "It was time to let the world know what an awful species we are. We're the worst… I love all animals. Human beings? I could take them or leave them!" He added: "I tell [the audience], I say, 'I don't know why I called it Humanity, I'm not a big fan, I prefer dogs.'"


    It's just not the most important thing in life for some people, is what I get from what he is saying and I completely agree.

    That is true, but then again, maybe your kid moved to another country, live in another part of the country. Obviously, it might be an option, but it is not given. And let's face it, most people are going to end up being lonely in the end anyway :) Even for married couples, one is going to die before the other. So basically you have to rely on friends as I see it. Again, I think a lot of it is an illusion that people have imprinted in themselves, that being old with kids is much better, but we all know that they wouldn't come around all the time anyway, again they might not be in a position to do so. And this only works in a decent family anyway, which is not always the case either.

    Personally, im not especially well off myself in regards to danish standards, so obviously Im lucky to live in a country where we have a good social network that takes care of everyone.

    But for a lot of people in the US it must be a huge concern, but again you have so many option for learning from the European model of how to do it, but for some strange reason people in the US just doesn't seem to really want it, which will always be a huge mystery for me.
    But probably because I grew up in Denmark and we don't like people in general to not be cared for, not only on a personal level, but I also think a lot understand that, even from a society point of view, the better off people are, the less crime there is, which ultimately make it a nicer place to live in general, you don't have a lot of miserable people in the streets and so forth. And in general that all people should be allowed a decent life, because some of them might have illnesses or psychological issues, or whatever might have caused them to end up in a bad situation.

    Again in certain situations, it might be true. Your kid might also end up being a drug addict, surely you wouldn't want to fallback on that. Clearly you can look at all the benefits and ignore all the bad things and surely having kids makes you way better off. But that is not really a reflection of reality for a lot of people. But in a fairytale scenario, sure you are in a bad situation :D
     
    #37 Nimos, Feb 6, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
  18. SeekingAllTruth

    SeekingAllTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2020
    Messages:
    1,198
    Ratings:
    +610
    Religion:
    agnostic deist
    I am sorry for your loss. My sisters-in-law just lost their two cats in one year so I've seen grieving for a beloved pet. I think there is a God, I am more sure there is a Higher Intelligence out there somewhere but I'm still not certain, hence my agnosticism. But if there is a higher intelligence it is definitely deist. It doesn't interact with us on any level that anyone can verify or record. I've lost belief in an afterlife. Once we die we're gone. I've had to slowly accept this reality for myself. I used to get encouraged by NDE accounts, but since they are so rare in terms of the world population I have to chalk them up to hallucinations created by the mind shortly before death comes. I wish I could be more optimistic, but age kills optimism.
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,559
    Ratings:
    +6,422
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I did watch it but I do not believe there was ever an Adam and Eve and I do not believe in “the fall” and I do not believe that there is a being called Satan, so I do not believe that is why there is suffering in the world. All suffering comes from the material world so as long as we are living in the material world there will be some suffering. The more we turn to the spiritual world in our minds the less our suffering will be. After we die and enter the spiritual world there will be no more suffering, if we played our cards right in this world.

    “If we suffer it is the outcome of material things, and all the trials and troubles come from this world of illusion.

    For instance, a merchant may lose his trade and depression ensues. A workman is dismissed and starvation stares him in the face. A farmer has a bad harvest, anxiety fills his mind. A man builds a house which is burnt to the ground and he is straightway homeless, ruined, and in despair.

    All these examples are to show you that the trials which beset our every step, all our sorrow, pain, shame and grief, are born in the world of matter; whereas the spiritual Kingdom never causes sadness. A man living with his thoughts in this Kingdom knows perpetual joy. The ills all flesh is heir to do not pass him by, but they only touch the surface of his life, the depths are calm and serene.

    Today, humanity is bowed down with trouble, sorrow and grief, no one escapes; the world is wet with tears; but, thank God, the remedy is at our doors. Let us turn our hearts away from the world of matter and live in the spiritual world! It alone can give us freedom! If we are hemmed in by difficulties we have only to call upon God, and by His great Mercy we shall be helped.

    If sorrow and adversity visit us, let us turn our faces to the Kingdom and heavenly consolation will be outpoured……..

    When our thoughts are filled with the bitterness of this world, let us turn our eyes to the sweetness of God’s compassion and He will send us heavenly calm! If we are imprisoned in the material world, our spirit can soar into the Heavens and we shall be free indeed!

    When our days are drawing to a close let us think of the eternal worlds, and we shall be full of joy!

    You see all round you proofs of the inadequacy of material things—how joy, comfort, peace and consolation are not to be found in the transitory things of the world. Is it not then foolishness to refuse to seek these treasures where they may be found? The doors of the spiritual Kingdom are open to all, and without is absolute darkness…......

    Thus, spirituality is the greatest of God’s gifts, and ‘Life Everlasting’ means ‘Turning to God’. May you, one and all, increase daily in spirituality, may you be strengthened in all goodness, may you be helped more and more by the Divine consolation, be made free by the Holy Spirit of God, and may the power of the Heavenly Kingdom live and work among you.”


    Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,559
    Ratings:
    +6,422
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Thanks for your condolences. It has been and still is difficult and painful, because other than my Faith, the cats are all I have. I have my husband but he is kind of in the background so I am mostly on my own, even though he shares the same love for the cats and the same religious beliefs. Well, maybe that is how it is when you get to be my age. ;)

    As a Baha'i, I am kind of in between a deist and a Christian type belief because I do not believe that God interacts directly with ordinary people as Christians believe, I believe that God only reveals His Will to Messengers in every age. Other than that God remains in His Own High Place, wherever that is. I do not seek to know that because I know I can never know God directly and I won't want to and I like the fact that God is a Mystery. So that is how I am different from a Christian.

    I do get angry at God when I lose a cat even if that is not rational, but at least I know it is not rational, although at the time when I am totally immersed in my feelings it seems rational for the moment. But even after that emotional outburst is over I still question that God is loving, and I really do not believe it, because of all the suffering I see in the world, my own included.

    In spite of my feelings about God, I am sure of tow things, that God exists and that there is an afterlife. I do not think that the NDE accounts are proof of an afterlife. Although they are evidence that indicates that the soul can exist apart from the body, those people never fully died so they never crossed over to the spiritual world. Even in the NDE accounts they are asked by this entity they believe was God whether they wanted to continue and die or go back to their life in this world, so that is proof that they were not fully dead.

    Anyhow, I believe there is an afterlife because of what Baha'u'llah wrote, because I believe everything He wrote is the truth, since it was revealed to Him by God. I believe that the 'afterlife' is kind of a misnomer because death is simply a continuation of this life in the spiritual world. Baha'u'llah did not say much about the afterlife and He gave us reasons why that information was withheld. One reason is that it would be impossible to describe since the spiritual world is so different from this world, and another reason is because if we knew what it was like we would not want to remain one more minute in this world and the entire fabric of society would be destroyed.

    Here is a short video of what Baha'is believe about the journey of the soul in the spiritual world.
    It is not an official Baha'i video but I believe it is an accurate depiction.

     
    #40 Trailblazer, Feb 6, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2021
    • Winner Winner x 1
Loading...