What is God responsible for?

[Trailblazer]

We lost another cat today, and that makes six cats we have lost in one year. I just told my story about all the cat losses I have endured on the Pet Loss Forum but I won’t post the story here. I do not really know anyone on that forum since I rarely go there, but I had to post it somewhere, and all those people understand how I feel whereas my husband does not understand because he never grieves over the loss of a cat or close family member.

Suffice to say I can hardly believe this happened again. It was not due to lack of care that she or any of those other cats passed away. So why does this keep happening?

The following is what I wrote to one poster on the Pet Loss Forum who was feeling guilty because her cat died, even though she did all she could do for her cat.

I said: “I also know about the guilt, but I do not struggle with that anymore, I just have tremendous grief. Why should I feel guilty when I did all I could do? The fact of the matter is that death is part of life, and the buck stops with God because God created a material world where people and animals will die. I do not forgive God for all the suffering I have endured and I doubt I ever will. God is squarely responsible for all this suffering we endure and I cannot understand why other people don't see that God is responsible, because it is just logic. Atheists see it, but believers don't see it because they don't want to see it. I am a believer and I see it, knowing there is nothing I can do about it because God is omnipotent. It is a really difficult position to be in.”

I believe that God exists, I am sure of it, but there is no way I am going to believe a God that allows this much suffering is a loving God. I certainly am not only referring to my own suffering, I am referring to all the suffering of other people and animals. Just think of how many people have lost loved ones due to Covid-19. How is it their fault that they died and left grieving family members?

Whenever a cat dies we have this discussion and my husband says I should drop out of the Baha’i Faith and “become” an atheist, but I cannot “become” an atheist anymore than an atheist can become a believer, since I believe that God exists. Moreover, it is not a requirement of my religion for me to believe that God is loving. I am a logical person and I cannot believe what I see no evidence for just because it is in a book of scriptures. And where is this loving God? He sends Messengers to do His dirty work and then goes back into hiding. I would not show up either if I was God and was responsible for all this suffering.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I'm so sorry you've had another loss... Damn, 6 in one year is a lot to deal with! I've read your previous thread on the subject, and I know it's been weighing heavily on your mind.

I'd just try to remember the fact that you gave them a loving home where they got to live their lives happily as a member of your family. Do you have a memorial place where you can pay your respects?

 

[ChristineM]

We lost another cat today, and that makes six cats we have lost in one year. I just told my story about all the cat losses I have endured on the Pet Loss Forum but I won’t post the story here. I do not really know anyone on that forum since I rarely go there, but I had to post it somewhere, and all those people understand how I feel whereas my husband does not understand because he never grieves over the loss of a cat or close family member.

Suffice to say I can hardly believe this happened again. It was not due to lack of care that she or any of those other cats passed away. So why does this keep happening?

The following is what I wrote to one poster on the Pet Loss Forum who was feeling guilty because her cat died, even though she did all she could do for her cat.

I said: “I also know about the guilt, but I do not struggle with that anymore, I just have tremendous grief. Why should I feel guilty when I did all I could do? The fact of the matter is that death is part of life, and the buck stops with God because God created a material world where people and animals will die. I do not forgive God for all the suffering I have endured and I doubt I ever will. God is squarely responsible for all this suffering we endure and I cannot understand why other people don't see that God is responsible, because it is just logic. Atheists see it, but believers don't see it because they don't want to see it. I am a believer and I see it, knowing there is nothing I can do about it because God is omnipotent. It is a really difficult position to be in.”

I believe that God exists, I am sure of it, but there is no way I am going to believe a God that allows this much suffering is a loving God. I certainly am not only referring to my own suffering, I am referring to all the suffering of other people and animals. Just think of how many people have lost loved ones due to Covid-19. How is it their fault that they died and left grieving family members?

Whenever a cat dies we have this discussion and my husband says I should drop out of the Baha’i Faith and “become” an atheist, but I cannot “become” an atheist anymore than an atheist can become a believer, since I believe that God exists. Moreover, it is not a requirement of my religion for me to believe that God is loving. I am a logical person and I cannot believe what I see no evidence for just because it is in a book of scriptures. And where is this loving God? He sends Messengers to do His dirty work and then goes back into hiding. I would not show up either if I was God and was responsible for all this suffering.

I am so sorry for you loss. Loosing a loved one is devastating, loosing so many in such a short time, i can not imagine how you feel.

 

[JustGeorge]

I'm sorry you lost a cat, @Trailblazer .

The saddest thing with pets is that most of the time, we outlive them...

 

[Nakosis]

We lost another cat today, and that makes six cats we have lost in one year. I just told my story about all the cat losses I have endured on the Pet Loss Forum but I won’t post the story here. I do not really know anyone on that forum since I rarely go there, but I had to post it somewhere, and all those people understand how I feel whereas my husband does not understand because he never grieves over the loss of a cat or close family member.

Suffice to say I can hardly believe this happened again. It was not due to lack of care that she or any of those other cats passed away. So why does this keep happening?

The following is what I wrote to one poster on the Pet Loss Forum who was feeling guilty because her cat died, even though she did all she could do for her cat.

I said: “I also know about the guilt, but I do not struggle with that anymore, I just have tremendous grief. Why should I feel guilty when I did all I could do? The fact of the matter is that death is part of life, and the buck stops with God because God created a material world where people and animals will die. I do not forgive God for all the suffering I have endured and I doubt I ever will. God is squarely responsible for all this suffering we endure and I cannot understand why other people don't see that God is responsible, because it is just logic. Atheists see it, but believers don't see it because they don't want to see it. I am a believer and I see it, knowing there is nothing I can do about it because God is omnipotent. It is a really difficult position to be in.”

I believe that God exists, I am sure of it, but there is no way I am going to believe a God that allows this much suffering is a loving God. I certainly am not only referring to my own suffering, I am referring to all the suffering of other people and animals. Just think of how many people have lost loved ones due to Covid-19. How is it their fault that they died and left grieving family members?

Whenever a cat dies we have this discussion and my husband says I should drop out of the Baha’i Faith and “become” an atheist, but I cannot “become” an atheist anymore than an atheist can become a believer, since I believe that God exists. Moreover, it is not a requirement of my religion for me to believe that God is loving. I am a logical person and I cannot believe what I see no evidence for just because it is in a book of scriptures. And where is this loving God? He sends Messengers to do His dirty work and then goes back into hiding. I would not show up either if I was God and was responsible for all this suffering.

I can't have cats. For all my pretence of being stoic, I never figured out how to be stoic when a cat dies. So I decided not to have any more cats.
Unfortunately, I can't help you with God. Can't help with the grief except to say I understand it.

I just take it all and shelf it away in some corner of my mind and not look at it. Every once in a while I'll get reminded that it's still there. Then try to distract myself so I can forget it's there for a while more.

 

[Brickjectivity]

We lost another cat today, and that makes six cats we have lost in one year. I just told my story about all the cat losses I have endured on the Pet Loss Forum but I won’t post the story here. I do not really know anyone on that forum since I rarely go there, but I had to post it somewhere, and all those people understand how I feel whereas my husband does not understand because he never grieves over the loss of a cat or close family member.

Suffice to say I can hardly believe this happened again. It was not due to lack of care that she or any of those other cats passed away. So why does this keep happening?

The following is what I wrote to one poster on the Pet Loss Forum who was feeling guilty because her cat died, even though she did all she could do for her cat.

I said: “I also know about the guilt, but I do not struggle with that anymore, I just have tremendous grief. Why should I feel guilty when I did all I could do? The fact of the matter is that death is part of life, and the buck stops with God because God created a material world where people and animals will die. I do not forgive God for all the suffering I have endured and I doubt I ever will. God is squarely responsible for all this suffering we endure and I cannot understand why other people don't see that God is responsible, because it is just logic. Atheists see it, but believers don't see it because they don't want to see it. I am a believer and I see it, knowing there is nothing I can do about it because God is omnipotent. It is a really difficult position to be in.”

I believe that God exists, I am sure of it, but there is no way I am going to believe a God that allows this much suffering is a loving God. I certainly am not only referring to my own suffering, I am referring to all the suffering of other people and animals. Just think of how many people have lost loved ones due to Covid-19. How is it their fault that they died and left grieving family members?

Whenever a cat dies we have this discussion and my husband says I should drop out of the Baha’i Faith and “become” an atheist, but I cannot “become” an atheist anymore than an atheist can become a believer, since I believe that God exists. Moreover, it is not a requirement of my religion for me to believe that God is loving. I am a logical person and I cannot believe what I see no evidence for just because it is in a book of scriptures. And where is this loving God? He sends Messengers to do His dirty work and then goes back into hiding. I would not show up either if I was God and was responsible for all this suffering.

Just let the question pass if you can. It will come back in its own time, and you can live without answering it for the time being. I think the truth is that we aren't able to see the situation as it really is. I don't mean its hidden. I mean we aren't able to encompass the understanding thereof. I don't think its a situation in which a human can be expected to figure things out. The main thing is not to make representations about God, because they're generally going to oversimplify and to make God seem defined or human.

Overall we are very lucky or seem so. Overall good things have happened. We're here. That's pretty good.

 

[sun rise]

@Trailblazer , my goodness - 6 in such a terribly short time. We've said goodbye to cats and dogs over the years but in spite of dealing with such losses, losing 6 is so much harder than what we've been through.

We love them and when the bond is broken by death, the pain can only be understood by those who have been through it.

As to God's part in all of this, all I can do is to share my perspective that God is in our heart and suffers when we suffer because in the deepest part of our being we are not separate.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sorry you lost a cat, @Trailblazer .

The saddest thing with pets is that most of the time, we outlive them...

Of course that is true, but I don't know anyone who has lost six cats in one year, and all of them were not that old.
It is not because they did not get the proper vet care, it is just fate, fate for which God is responsible.
God has some kind of plan for my life, but I do not have to like it and I do not have to like God.

 

[Trailblazer]

my perspective that God is in our heart and suffers when we suffer because in the deepest part of our being we are not separate.

I respect your perspective but I cannot believe that way because there is no evidence for it, so it is just a belief.
I do not believe God suffers at all because I do not believe that God is subject to suffering, and sure, that is just my belief so I cannot prove it.

As soon as I see any evidence that God cares about how I feel I will let you know. I do like to give credit where it is due, but not where it is not.

 

[SomeRandom]

Sorry for your loss
It’s always hard losing a beloved pet. They’re like family

 

[Trailblazer]

Just let the question pass if you can. It will come back in its own time, and you can live without answering it for the time being. I think the truth is that we aren't able to see the situation as it really is. I don't mean its hidden. I mean we aren't able to encompass the understanding thereof. I don't think its a situation in which a human can be expected to figure things out. The main thing is not to make representations about God, because they're generally going to oversimplify and to make God seem defined or human.

Actually, I fully agree with you despite the feelings I expressed about God.
I agree that the truth is that we aren't able to see the situation as it really is and we aren't able to encompass the understanding thereof. I don't think its a situation in which a human can be expected to figure things out.

That said, why are we expected to endure something that we cannot see or understand? What kind of a just God would expect us to do what we cannot do? If a human cannot be expected to figure things out, why are we expected to endure so much suffering and still believe God is loving? Sorry, I cannot do it.

Overall we are very lucky or seem so. Overall good things have happened. We're here. That's pretty good.

That we are here might seem lucky to those who want to be here, but I often wish I was never born.
Sure, some good things have happened but the bad far outweighs the good, not only for me but for many people.
And every time something good happens something bad is right behind it. Such is the nature of this world, which is a storehouse of suffering, and confers much more suffering upon some people than others.

Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

 

[JustGeorge]

Of course that is true, but I don't know anyone who has lost six cats in one year, and all of them were not that old.
It is not because they did not get the proper vet care, it is just fate, fate for which God is responsible.
God has some kind of plan for my life, but I do not have to like it and I do not have to like God.

Unfortunately, the more cats you have, the more chances one opens themselves up to lose one or more. I do not say this because I frown on having many cats; indeed, I have ten. Its just the numbers. The more rocks I have on the floor, the more chances I have to step on one. I know you also mentioned at ones point several of the cats are related and have genetic kidney problems. This is certainly through no fault of yours, and I am confident that you give them the best care possible, but it again raises the chances that illness and death will occur. Though that doesn't make it any easier to cope with...

You certainly do not have to like God's plan or God. That is entirely up to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can't have cats. For all my pretence of being stoic, I never figured out how to be stoic when a cat dies. So I decided not to have any more cats.

That tells me what kind of person you are, something I already had intimations of.
No offense to believers but I have discovered that atheists generally have more compassion.

That is a solution I have considered but I cannot live without the cats because they are all that I love in this world.
We never had any children so we have no grands either.

Unfortunately, I can't help you with God. Can't help with the grief except to say I understand it.

Thanks, that helps me much more than you could ever know. Nobody can help me with God, except God.

I just take it all and shelf it away in some corner of my mind and not look at it. Every once in a while I'll get reminded that it's still there. Then try to distract myself so I can forget it's there for a while more.

That is exactly what I do, try to distract myself whenever the thoughts come into my mind, till next time.

 

[Trailblazer]

They’re like family

Thanks.....
They are family, the only family I will ever know.
This is something that people with children cannot understand.
It is not their fault they cannot understand, they were just lucky to be blessed with children.

 

[Trailblazer]

Unfortunately, the more cats you have, the more chances one opens themselves up to lose one or more. I do not say this because I frown on having many cats; indeed, I have ten. Its just the numbers. The more rocks I have on the floor, the more chances I have to step on one. I know you also mentioned at ones point several of the cats are related and have genetic kidney problems. This is certainly through no fault of yours, and I am confident that you give them the best care possible, but it again raises the chances that illness and death will occur. Though that doesn't make it any easier to cope with...

Whereas that is just logically true, it is also true that the more cats I have the more I will have left when one dies.
When I met you I think we had 10 cats; then 5 died, we got 3 more, then we had 8.... Now we only have 7 and I fully intend to get another cat as soon as I can find one, so we will have 8 again. Before that, I was insistent on having 10 all the time, but now I am okay with 8, but not 7. And God is not going to stop me from getting another cat, nor is my husband.

You certainly do not have to like God's plan or God. That is entirely up to you.

Thanks, and that's right. I do not like God and I am sure He knows it, not that it matters to Him.

 

[JustGeorge]

Thanks.....
They are family, the only family I will ever know.
This is something that people with children cannot understand.
It is not their fault they cannot understand, they were just lucky to be blessed with children.

Cats and children can be family together; one doesn't have to exclude the other.

The cat I grew up with left a profound influence on me. Really, I believe she was more influential on my personality than my parents were. I was grief stricken for a very long time when she died... I still get upset thinking about her sometimes, and this was twenty years ago. It wasn't like I lost a family member, I did lose a family member.

My eldest son had a special cat as well, that also passed away... it left a hole in his heart. Him and that ancient cat(the cat was 15 when we got him)played chess, and watched movies, and talked about world affairs...

My 7 year old has a special cat as well now... I cringe to think what will happen when that cat goes. They're both 7; only a few months apart in age. Luckily, Cub's in good health so far...

Children are indeed a blessing, but cats can be, too. Different blessings, perhaps, but both joyful in their own way. And super joyful together!

I'm sorry you didn't have the family you wanted, but I hope your four footed family brings you happiness for as many years as you're around.

 

[Trailblazer]

Children are indeed a blessing, but cats can be, too. Different blessings, perhaps, but both joyful in their own way. And super joyful together!

I'm sorry you didn't have the family you wanted, but I hope your four footed family brings you happiness for as many years as you're around.

I did not want a family when I was younger but even if I had wanted one I would not have considered it responsible to have a family, given that i was ill-equipped to raise a family, and the same goes for my husband, because of the kinds of childhoods we had in which we got none of our emotional needs met. I would never want to have children if thee was even a chance of that being passed down.

I do not think that an animal can replace a child, hard as we try to use them for that.
This was another setup that God created. He made it so that people with children would be rewarded and childless people would suffer. Sorry, I have nothing to be thankful to God for, although I am thankful to people like you who are loving and caring.

My husband and I always argue at times like this, and I can barely believe what he just said, but it is to be expected since he is not logical at all... He said that since God is responsible for all of existence God that is why I have nice people who care and come to my aid... I told him sorry but no, God is only responsible for creating the creation, God gets no credit for people who choose to be kind; and even if God was responsible for them, God would also be responsible for people who choose to be cruel. But God gets no credit for people who choose to be kind or cruel because they have free will so they freely chose to be kind or cruel.

 

[Brickjectivity]

That we are here might seem lucky to those who want to be here, but I often wish I was never born.

I know the dark tunnel somewhat but not as well as some. You find yourself in a situation in which you'd like to go but that you can't leave someone by themselves, or your loved ones would suffer over it or your sense of duty prevents it...or you think its a sin...etc.

Sure, some good things have happened but the bad far outweighs the good, not only for me but for many people.
And every time something good happens something bad is right behind it. Such is the nature of this world, which is a storehouse of suffering, and confers much more suffering upon some people than others.

Yes. Also just imagine millions of years ago how difficult it must have been for the proto-mammals that were evolving the first hair. The itching of that first hair probably drove them insane. All that suffering. In a way they suffered for my sake, so that I could have beautiful silky wavy hair. I haven't earned such wonderful hair, but the hair itself is very deserving. I think the proto mammals would be proud. Had they known they might have understood and thought "I think its for a good cause."

Actually, I fully agree with you despite the feelings I expressed about God.
I agree that the truth is that we aren't able to see the situation as it really is and we aren't able to encompass the understanding thereof. I don't think its a situation in which a human can be expected to figure things out.

That said, why are we expected to endure something that we cannot see or understand? What kind of a just God would expect us to do what we cannot do? If a human cannot be expected to figure things out, why are we expected to endure so much suffering and still believe God is loving? Sorry, I cannot do it.

I understand. My take is that God isn't loving like us but is love in a different sense. I think when I show someone love I am interacting with God. To most people that sounds atheistic or something, but its not. I'm not able to explain it in all situations. God is like an anvil: cold and hard it doesn't feel loving, but it will shoe your horse, bar your gate and make fine jewelry. You need it, and it doesn't need you. It is unyielding. It is black and grey.

 

[Left Coast]

We lost another cat today, and that makes six cats we have lost in one year. I just told my story about all the cat losses I have endured on the Pet Loss Forum but I won’t post the story here. I do not really know anyone on that forum since I rarely go there, but I had to post it somewhere, and all those people understand how I feel whereas my husband does not understand because he never grieves over the loss of a cat or close family member.

Suffice to say I can hardly believe this happened again. It was not due to lack of care that she or any of those other cats passed away. So why does this keep happening?

The following is what I wrote to one poster on the Pet Loss Forum who was feeling guilty because her cat died, even though she did all she could do for her cat.

I said: “I also know about the guilt, but I do not struggle with that anymore, I just have tremendous grief. Why should I feel guilty when I did all I could do? The fact of the matter is that death is part of life, and the buck stops with God because God created a material world where people and animals will die. I do not forgive God for all the suffering I have endured and I doubt I ever will. God is squarely responsible for all this suffering we endure and I cannot understand why other people don't see that God is responsible, because it is just logic. Atheists see it, but believers don't see it because they don't want to see it. I am a believer and I see it, knowing there is nothing I can do about it because God is omnipotent. It is a really difficult position to be in.”

I believe that God exists, I am sure of it, but there is no way I am going to believe a God that allows this much suffering is a loving God. I certainly am not only referring to my own suffering, I am referring to all the suffering of other people and animals. Just think of how many people have lost loved ones due to Covid-19. How is it their fault that they died and left grieving family members?

Whenever a cat dies we have this discussion and my husband says I should drop out of the Baha’i Faith and “become” an atheist, but I cannot “become” an atheist anymore than an atheist can become a believer, since I believe that God exists. Moreover, it is not a requirement of my religion for me to believe that God is loving. I am a logical person and I cannot believe what I see no evidence for just because it is in a book of scriptures. And where is this loving God? He sends Messengers to do His dirty work and then goes back into hiding. I would not show up either if I was God and was responsible for all this suffering.

*hugs*

Sadly for people like you me Trail, who like to be as logical as possible, the reality is that life just doesn't always make sense. Oftentimes life is an irrational cluster ****, pardon my French, and we do the best we can to muddle through. I think @Brickjectivity gave excellent advice to just let the theological questions lie for now. Just sit with the sadness and grief of this moment. It will pass. Sometimes words and thoughts just don't help. So just...be. You're wonderful and full of love, just as you are.

I'm always here for you to chat, hope you know that.

 

[Trailblazer]

*hugs*

Sadly for people like you me Trail, who like to be as logical as possible, the reality is that life just doesn't always make sense. Oftentimes life is an irrational cluster ****, pardon my French, and we do the best we can to muddle through. I think @Brickjectivity gave excellent advice to just let the theological questions lie for now. Just sit with the sadness and grief of this moment. It will pass. Sometimes words and thoughts just don't help. So just...be. You're wonderful and full of love, just as you are.

I'm always here for you to chat, hope you know that.

Thanks, I know you are here and I appreciate that.

Yes, I think @ Brickjectivity gave excellent advice and even helped me with some of my theological questions when he said "God is like an anvil: cold and hard it doesn't feel loving, but it will shoe your horse, bar your gate and make fine jewelry. You need it, and it doesn't need you. It is unyielding. It is black and grey."

That gave me something to think about.