What is Faith?

[idea]

Wow, what a hasty judgement. Do you have a video about people who are compelled to stick labels on others?

Well, something may be called "elevation" but judging by that video it has nothing to do with what I am trying to describe. I daresay that my skills of communication are limited but for the most part it is not much talked about and does not seem to be related to herds. Quite the opposite in my experience. Neither do you hear the names of deities or gurus. There is no wham-bang moment, you don't walk around with a smile describing your epiphany.

The most intriguing thing I have found is that you do not learn anything - you remember it. And you don't rush off and join a religious organization.

we are all human, and share common experiences. we all get hungry, we all sleep, we think we have something unique - but we are all just humans. many words have been used for what many call - spiritual guidance, enlightenment, aware/awake, inspired - deep feelings of peace - endorphins - (many religious groups were started with ... drugs... there are a few chemicals involved)...

we're all humans - we've all felt highs and lows, we've all felt enlightened at times - I just now hold a different explanation for those sensations than "it must be true!" or "it must be god!"

 

[Trailblazer]

And yes, even your dictionary defined faith as unjustified belief, although you apparently didn't recognize that. The dictionary definition you provided, is actually a definition of religious faith, but all we need do is remove God and religion from the definition and replace them any other unjustified belief: "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof." Spiritual apprehension doesn't justify anything. Evidence properly understood does.

No, you are wrong and you just cannot admit it, because you can never be wrong, as it is too much of a blow to your ego.
The dictionary does not define define faith as unjustified belief, although you apparently didn't recognize that.
What you did was interpret the definition to mean what you 'believe', that spiritual apprehension rather than proof is unjustified belief.

YOU define faith as unjustified belief because YOU consider it unjustified.
I define faith as justified belief because I consider it justified. Spiritual apprehension coupled with evidence properly understood justifies my faith.

And I explained why what the millions you referred to didn't justify their belief by academic standards.

It is laughable as well as completely illogical that anyone would attempt to justify a religious belief by academic standards.
Religious belief is justified by the evidence and the evidence is all the revelations from God that come to us from the Messengers of God, and is recorded in the Bible, the Qur'an, the Writings of Baha'u'llah and others.

Whatever criteria they used were private and justify nothing.

There is nothing private about the Bible or the Baha'i Writings. They are both publicly available on the internet.
The only thing that justifies belief in God is scriptures, since that is all we can ever know about God.
The criteria you use is your own personal opinions and that justifies nothing.

How do I know? Because no sound argument concludes. "therefore, God," meaning that that position can only be come to without proper justification.

As I said on the other thread no logical argument can be made that concludes "therefore, God," and that is why logical arguments cannot be used to try to prove that God exists. God is believed on faith and evidence, and can never be proven to exist.

I explained why can never be proven to exist in the OP of this thread and any unbiased reader would be able to understand what I said even if they still come away needing proof to believe in God.

You just made my case.

That is not your case, it is my case, since I made it.
"I argue that people have to have faith in anything they cannot prove."

The question is, so what if they need faith?

 

[rocala]

we're all humans - we've all felt highs and lows, we've all felt enlightened at times - I just now hold a different explanation for those sensations than "it must be true!" or "it must be god!"

I never said it must be true. I have never said that I even believe in god. Dear me you do love to generalize don't you. You just have faith in a different explanation, that's all.
I once read " A sensible person will always try to see things in a logical manner. But only a fool disregards personal experience."

 

[Trailblazer]

@Nimos

I guess it is too much to ask of God to make all atheists like you, so I will just have to settle for having one.

 

[Trailblazer]

Faith can persevere through hopelessness.

That made me think of this song.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Pointless debate.

Whether faith is justified or unjustified is a matter of perspective.

If you're not the one who shares in the faith of another, then the faith is unjustified. If you are "another," then your faith is entirely justified.

 

[rocala]

Pointless debate.

Not the phrase that I would use.

Whether faith is justified or unjustified is a matter of perspective.

I totally agree.
To go back to your first comment, I would say that anything that gets people thinking and communicating, and this has certainly happened, is not without value.

 

[Trailblazer]

Whether faith is justified or unjustified is a matter of perspective.

That is what I was hoping people would come to realize.
But certain people will never realize that because they cannot see anyone else's perspective since they always have to be right about everything.

 

[Nimos]

No, you are wrong and you just cannot admit it, because you can never be wrong, as it is too much of a blow to your ego.
The dictionary does not define define faith as unjustified belief, although you apparently didn't recognize that.
What you did was interpret the definition to mean what you already think, that spiritual apprehension rather than proof is unjustified belief.

YOU define faith as unjustified belief because YOU consider it unjustified.
I define faith as justified belief because I consider it justified. Spiritual apprehension coupled with evidence properly understood justifies my faith.

@It Aint Necessarily So

I think you two might be talking past each other a little bit and you are both correct. You just seem to have jumped to the extremes. If we can agree that the meaning of faith is simply "something which is hoped for" then it can be both justified and unjustified. If there is absolutely no evidence for why one would have faith in something then it is unjustified, but a lot of things with a high amount of uncertainty can be justified. For instance, having faith in someone you know, an idea etc. can be justified even though it is not 100% proven to be true.

if you are talking specifically about religious faith, I would call that unjustified, given that no evidence for the divine has been provided, doesn't mean that it is pointless or meaningless.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have no idea what faith is, but it does seem to mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I fully admit to not being able to answer the question.

 

[Colt]

I have been having a discussion on another thread with @It Aint Necessarily So, and he claims that the definition of faith is unjustified belief.

@It Aint Necessarily So said: Millions agree with me that belief by faith is unjustified belief whether they use those words or not.

@Trailblazer said: If you are going to try to use that argument, many, many, more millions agree with me that belief by faith is justified belief whether they use those words or not.

Whether faith is justified or unjustified is only a matter of opinion and opinions vary.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, what is the definition of faith?

faith

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

faith means - Google Search

I argue that people have to have faith in anything they cannot prove, and it could be God or something or someone else. Faith is justified by the evidence, so for example if a spouse was always trustworthy and honest that would be evidence and a reason to have faith in that spouse.

I argue that we cannot go through life without faith, even if we do not believe in God. We have to have faith in anything we cannot prove and there are many things that cannot be proven in the course of everyday life. I cannot prove that if I go to college I will graduate, so I have to have faith in my abilities. I cannot prove that if I retire things will go as I planned, because I could suddenly get ill. The list goes on and on.

If faith is necessary for so many things in everyday life what is the problem with having faith in God?

Well, I already know what atheists will say, that there is no evidence for God so belief is unjustified. Atheists say that if only there was sufficient evidence, we would not have to have faith to believe in God, but that is absolutely false because evidence is not proof unless it is verifiable evidence, and since God can never be verified there can never be any proof that God exists.

No matter what kind of evidence we had we could never PROVE that evidence originated from God so we would have to have faith in our evidence.

There is no proof that God exists so if we are going to believe in God, we need to have faith.

I argue that there is evidence for God’s existence so faith in God is justified.

I argue that it is illogical to expect to ever have proof of God since God is not subject to proof.

The only way we could ever have proof that God exists, making faith unnecessary, is for God to appear on earth so we could see God with our own eyes, but there is a good reason why God never appears on earth.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

That is why the Bible says that nobody has ever seen God, because nobody can see God and live.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah concur with the Bible.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

If the God ever appeared on earth, so powerful is God’s light that we would all be reduced to utter nothingness. Sure, everyone would believe in God because it would be obvious to everyone that God exists, but what good would our belief be if we did not live?

IMOP. From my source:

FAITH AND BELIEF


101:8.1 “Belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the mode of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the mode of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.

101:8.2 Belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. But living religious faith is more than the association of noble beliefs; it is more than an exalted system of philosophy; it is a living experience concerned with spiritual meanings, divine ideals, and supreme values; it is God-knowing and man-serving. Beliefs may become group possessions, but faith must be personal. Theologic beliefs can be suggested to a group, but faith can rise up only in the heart of the individual religionist.

101:8.3 Faith has falsified its trust when it presumes to deny realities and to confer upon its devotees assumed knowledge. Faith is a traitor when it fosters betrayal of intellectual integrity and belittles loyalty to supreme values and divine ideals. Faith never shuns the problem-solving duty of mortal living. Living faith does not foster bigotry, persecution, or intolerance.

101:8.4 Faith does not shackle the creative imagination, neither does it maintain an unreasoning prejudice toward the discoveries of scientific investigation. Faith vitalizes religion and constrains the religionist heroically to live the golden rule. The zeal of faith is according to knowledge, and its strivings are the preludes to sublime peace.” Urantia Book 1955

 

[idea]

I never said it must be true. I have never said that I even believe in god. Dear me you do love to generalize don't you. You just have faith in a different explanation, that's all.
I once read " A sensible person will always try to see things in a logical manner. But only a fool disregards personal experience."

I don't have faith in my own personal experiences. (I'm not a fool.. I'm quite respected in my field)

I trusted a leader who molested my kids. Those *good feelings*, instinct to trust, instinct to have faith - they were wrong. Everyone in that congregation - who respected him, who had faith and trusted him - everyone was wrong.

A little thing called dissociation, cognitive dissonance, personal feelings based on our bias/experience -

Personal experience/feelings are nothing to have faith in.

"faith" is often clinging to personal bias, over unpleasant reality.

 

[rocala]

"faith" is often clinging to personal bias, over unpleasant reality.

Why do you keep going on about faith in this way? It has no bearing on anything that I have said. As you seem determined to at best patronize and at worse twist everything I think no further communication is the best option.

 

[idea]

Why do you keep going on about faith in this way? It has no bearing on anything that I have said. As you seem determined to at best, patronize and at worse twist everything I think no further communication is the best option.

I feel called to warn those who act from faith/personal experience/belief/feelings - as decisions are often misguided.

Faith healing as an example - better to use a hospital.
Faith that God will answer prayer - better to fix it yourself than wait on God.
Faith in bank/house/anything - best to use data, research, multiple views than just *trust your feelings*

Just reality.

Yes, hit a nerve? Usually from those who don't want to see reality. Avoid, accuse, anger ... sorry if *feelings* aren't worth faith.

 

[rocala]

I act in the best way I can. Very little has anything to do with faith. Certain experiences have made me inclined to believe that there is 'another' aspect to our existence. I guess the result is "spiritual but not religious" - sound familiar? I don't take anything on faith alone. In fact I question everything and am always open to new ideas. And as I did not get it into your head the first time here it is loud and clear I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD. As for your warning, nothing there has the slightest relevance to my beliefs or life

 

[Trailblazer]

If we can agree that the meaning of faith is simply "something which is hoped for" then it can be both justified and unjustified. If there is absolutely no evidence for why one would have faith in something then it is unjustified, but a lot of things with a high amount of uncertainty can be justified.

if you are talking specifically about religious faith, I would call that unjustified, given that no evidence for the divine has been provided, doesn't mean that it is pointless or meaningless.

First, you said that if there is absolutely no evidence for something then faith is unjustified.
Secondly, you say that religious faith is unjustified, given that no evidence for the divine has been provided.

The problem is always evidence. Is there absolutely no evidence of God's existence? If so, why do most people in the world believe in God?

84 percent of the world population has a faith

I am not saying that God exists is true because most people believe that God exists since that would be the fallacy of ad populum. I am wondering why that many people believe in God if there is absolutely no evidence for God's existence. It makes no sense that that many people would believe in God if there was absolutely no evidence for God's existence

What would be evidence for God's existence if God existed? I posted more than one thread on this very subject, but no atheist could give me anything that would be evidence, not anything reasonable.

I cannot remember everything that atheists suggested, but I will hit on the ones I remember.

Evidence for God

1. God writes in the sky "I am God and I exist"
2. God drops a Bible down the chimney of every living room in the world
3. God communicates directly to every person in the world.

The problem with each one of these is the same - there would be no way to verify that any of these came from God, thus they would not be proof that God exists. How could we know that God was the one who wrote in the sky, rather than a government trying to cause unrest or an alien from outer space? It is the same with the Bible down the chimney. How could we know God did it? If everyone heard voices in their heads saying "I am God and I exist" how would they know that was God rather than an auditory hallucination? They could not know it was God, they could only believe it was God.

But would 1-3 even be evidence? Maybe, because people would believe in God because of them, but most people in the world already believe in God because of Messengers. You can call them Messengers or Holy Men, but whatever you want to call them, they are men who serve as intermediaries between God and humans.

My point is that Messengers of God who reveal scriptures might have come from God, so the salient question is why any one of the methods listed above (1-3) is a better method than Messengers who reveal scriptures? Why would any of those methods even be as good as Messengers in order to not only reveal that God exists but also convey information about the attributes of God and the will of God?

Another important point is that if God does exist, there is no evidence that God has used any one of these methods (1-3) whereas there is evidence of Messengers who reveal scriptures that establish religions, so it would make more sense to evaluate that evidence rather than talking about 'what God could do.'

Another angle I have heard from atheists is what we would expect to see if God existed. What would we expect to see? Why would you expect to see x, y, or z? What we would expect to see if God existed all boils down to a personal opinion, that is all it is, so who is right and who is wrong? It is all a matter of personal opinion/belief. I would not expect to see what some atheists say they would expect to see if God existed, so why are their expectations right and mine wrong?

I get so tired of this ridiculous debate. Nobody can ever know what we would expect to see if God existed, so all of it is an ego projection.
Moreover, if God exists what we see is exactly what we would expect to see, so all the expectations of atheists fall down like a house of cards. The argument that God does not exist because we do not see what some atheists say they would expect to see is completely illogical, since nobody can ever know what we would expect to see if God existed. It is nothing more than an ego projection because they would expect to see what they want to see, what they believe God would do if God existed, which is nothing anybody can ever know.

 

[Valjean]

I love this Bible verse:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I always found that passage poetic gobbledegook. What does it even mean? I can't hake heads or tails of it.
Evidence of things not seen? What evidence? Faith's a lack of evidence.

 

[Valjean]

Faith is belief in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom is both a story (“The Kingdom is like…”) and a destination, so faith is the ability to navigate through the story.

So "faith" is reserved exclusively for references to a "Kingdom of God?"

 

[CG Didymus]

Religious people actually claim spiritual evidence and proof. Anything spiritual is beyond physical explanation. So really no one believes in things without some kind of evident experience regardless of how they interpret such.

If a Christian tells a person to put their faith in Jesus and he will save them. What happens? For some they give it a try. To make it work, however, they've got to do certain things... like love others, be generous, go to Church and fellowship with other believers, read the Bible and let it speak to their heart, pray to God to guide them and help them understand it.

If people do this, that is put their faith and trust in God and Jesus and the Bible and do all those other things, most anybody is going to change and I wouldn't doubt that they'll feel the love of God in their hearts. But anybody putting their faith and trust in any religion, and if they try and follow the behaviors expected of a true believer, they are probably going to feel as though it is real and that those beliefs work. But every one of those religions could very well be telling the person contradictory things to believe in. And that's the point. Faith and trust in any God of any religion doesn't have to really be real, but the person believes it to be real.

Christians got their beliefs about God that they take on faith. Another religion, like the Baha'i Faith, has theirs... But they contradict. And because what the Christian believes is working for them, and what the Baha'i believes is working for them, they each think theirs is the true belief and the other one is wrong. Then an Atheist comes along and tells both of them, "Hey, maybe what both of you believes is wrong." And the religious person says, "That can't be, because I know it's right. My prophet and my Scriptures say so."

Yeah, I agree with them. Faith in their stuff is true for them and works for them... and is real to them. Unfortunately, some of those religions expects their believers to go tell others just how real and true their beliefs are. That's always going to be a problem, because, in a way, the only way they become real, is by people believing they are real.

 

[idea]

... It is nothing more than an ego projection because they would expect to see what they want to see, what they believe God would do if God existed, which is nothing anybody can ever know.

The highest stage:
"I know what I believe in and what I think is valid, others may think differently and I'm prepared to reconsider my views" - William G. Perry (psychologist) - Wikipedia


Epistemology is an interesting field of study.
Views on what flavor of ice cream is best, vs views on ethics, the meaning of life, death, family - it is survival mode, we really want some things to offer hope, cling to what offers life, peace , fear those with different beliefs - think our beliefs will help others. I suppose we seek agreement to remove feelings of isolation - but we all have different experiences, different lives, different paths - different faith.

faith, hope, optimism - can keep ya moving forward - faith in yourself, to adapt, to work and figure it out, I guess that is where I am - working on faith in myself, which is strengthened each time I make progress on anything. Independent of God or any messenger or any other person - just working on faith in yourself