What is Faith?

[Treasure Hunter]

Faith can persevere through hopelessness. Hope cannot persevere through hopelessness. Hope is closely related to faith, but faith is more than just hope.

 

[osgart]

It's one thing to know something, and quite another to have confidence in what you know. Without faith in knowledge, and its uses then knowledge is useless; no one would act on it.

The non religious made up the definition of faith to mean unjustified belief and confidence or belief without evidence; probably to make conversation with religious people more one sided. I suppose another reason they invented that meaning is to label religious people, and deal with them according to that label. Another reason is to avoid spiritual conversations because it might sound like gibberish to them.

Religious people actually claim spiritual evidence and proof. Anything spiritual is beyond physical explanation. So really no one believes in things without some kind of evident experience regardless of how they interpret such.

I'm still waiting to see how abstract phenomenon can be scientifically tested and observed physically because that's never been demonstrated, and I can see the impossibility of it. I have no faith that it can be done.

 

[idea]

Some people hope for things they don't have faith in, but some people hope for things they also have faith in.
When it comes to my religious beliefs, I have hope for what I also have faith in...
When it comes to my personal life, right now my hope is very shaky so I am trying to have faith so I don't lose the little hope I have.
I put my faith in God since I don't think I can effectuate the changes by myself.

Life makes us believe in ourself.
Some versions of Christianity were created to control slaves - philosophies which require dependence ensure power.

I was forced to change a few things - alone - found the resources, made decisions, became my own authority (rather than relying on religious authority), had to do it for kids. I didn't think I could get through it myself either, but I did.

Many believers find - God helps those who help themselves... whatever gets you through it, best wishes.

 

[rocala]

and he claims that the definition of faith is unjustified belief.

I do understand his point but it does not always apply, IMO. My own spiritual beliefs have come about over time and are not the result of some 'special' book.

When people look for proof, evidence and so on they are referring to what we can see and hear and hopefully provide photographs and witnesses. And that is fine. However, I do not believe that we only have the normal five senses. I believe that some of us, perhaps all can snatch insights via some other way. A sixth sense, a psychic ability, call it what you will. When it happens, it has a quality that distinguishes it from other sensations.

That to me is the basis of my faith. I can offer no proof beyond rarely finding somebody who knows exactly what I am talking about. But I believe.

 

[idea]

I can't really make the comparison with going to church. Maybe that's a different use of the word faith.

faith in the familiar - the sun rises each morning, repetition, we have faith in what we are used to, what we grew up with. If there comes a day the sun doesn't rise - faith in the sun is destroyed. If there comes a day when spouse isn't loyal, when scriptures provide the wrong answer, when church/prophet/authority etc - when the secular world responds and helps instead - you change where your faith is.


Confidence, faith, belief, understanding - it changes.

Walk a mile in another's shoes... strange how seeing war, poverty, abuse, news - it doesn't sink in until its your kids, your church, your life. Everyone thinks they are confident, secure, ... rationalize everyone else as wrong... until you walk in their shoes.. and understand a bit more.

 

[Trailblazer]

some people go to church for 30 years, and their faith in their friends, and preachers, and church leaders - nothing major happens.... and they never understand - as I did not - those who change. they think they understand belief, think they understand faith - untested it's not faith.

perhaps understanding love - it has to be tested?
perhaps understanding faith - it has to be tested?

what is the answer to the test, is there a right or wrong answer?

I agree, untested it is not really faith, it is only belief. I have been tested so much that I know that only too well.

(Qur’án 29:2)
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?

It is a pass/fail test. We either lose faith or we retain it.

“… from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5 “

Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

 

[Nimos]

Yeah, but here is the joke. There is a reason how come there is a version of science that is build on axiomatic assumptions, which are not considered true and this version of science has nothing to do with truth.
You are in effect doing philosophy. But in philosophy there is no consensus on what truth is or even if it is possible.

In these debate there is always also philosophy and not religion versus the truth.

Can you elaborate on that, what science are you talking about?

 

[Trailblazer]

Faith can persevere through hopelessness. Hope cannot persevere through hopelessness. Hope is closely related to faith, but faith is more than just hope.

Faith is more than hope but faith is necessary to have hope.

 

[idea]

I agree, untested it is not really faith, it is only belief. I have been tested so much that I know that only too well.

(Qur’án 29:2)
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?

It is a pass/fail test. We either lose faith or we retain it.

“… from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5 “

Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

I did not retain faith, but do not see it as a fail - my kids won. Almost lost one, suicidal - they would not be alive if I had *kept the faith*

Paul/Saul - Paul was so sure of himself. Kick against the pricks...

We praise those who convert to our thought, and condemn those who change their faith - hypocritical.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was forced to change a few things - alone - found the resources, made decisions, became my own authority (rather than relying on religious authority), had to do it for kids. I didn't think I could get through it myself either, but I did.

Thanks, that is good to know. I am alone so I need to find resources. I trust God to guide me but I have to do the footwork.

 

[Nimos]

But as I said in my OP, no amount of evidence, no matter how strong, is going to serve as proof of God unless it is verifiable evidence.

That is not really an issue I think unless one assumes that having faith in something is a bad thing.

The issue occurs when faith is presented as truth. Hoping one wins the lottery is not a bad thing, acting as if you already won it and starting spending money that you don't have is not so good

The upshot is that there is no way to believe in God without faith since we can never have proof that God exists.

I'm not sure anyone of the apostles etc. has ever claimed anything else.

Here are some quick examples from the bible:

• Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
• Hebrews 11:6. And without faith, it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Again, the problem occurs when those that believe in God or have so much faith in it being true are willing to hurt others as a result of it. Like terrorists, people killing abortion doctors and the list goes on. Faith in it self is not necessarily bad.

 

[idea]

....A sixth sense, a psychic ability, call it what you will. When it happens, it has a quality that distinguishes it from other sensations.

That to me is the basis of my faith. I can offer no proof beyond rarely finding somebody who knows exactly what I am talking about. But I believe.

Its different from other sensations - its called elevation- it doesn't verify truth, its a herd bonding instinct, let's birds migrate and bees build hives - group think.

Heaven's gate, Muslims, Christians - all feel warm tingles, hear voices even - its not God, its elevation.

Elevation (emotion) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Trailblazer]

I did not retain faith, but do not see it as a fail - my kids won. Almost lost one, suicidal - they would not be alive if I had *kept the faith*

I only meant it is pass/fail in terms of retaining or losing faith, the implications of that are another matter.
Sometimes retaining faith is not beneficial.

 

[idea]

Thanks, that is good to know. I am alone so I need to find resources. I trust God to guide me but I have to do the footwork.

I thought those from church would help... but then, if someone accused your dad/bishop/brother of molesting kids - its a male heirarchy, church protects men, not kids - protects their beloved bishop etc. No one believes they could possibly do anything wrong...
- have to walk a mile in their shoes, accept where everyone's loyalties are (understand who isn't on your side)

Secular help, strangers - have to build a new community.

Follow the crowd and lose your soul,
Follow your soul and lose the crowd,
... lose the crowd... but do not fear the process of isolation, for soon your soul tribe will appear.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is not really an issue I think unless one assumes that having faith in something is a bad thing.

The issue occurs when faith is presented as truth. Hoping one wins the lottery is not a bad thing, acting as if you already won it and starting spending money that you don't have is not so good

I agree. Faith should not be presented as fact. We can believe it is the truth, but that is a personal belief.

I'm not sure anyone of the apostles etc. has ever claimed anything else.

Here are some quick examples from the bible:

• Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
• Hebrews 11:6. And without faith, it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

You just stole my two favorite Bible verses.

Again, the problem occurs when those that believe in God or have so much faith in it being true are willing to hurt others as a result of it. Like terrorists, people killing abortion doctors and the list goes on. Faith in it self is not necessarily bad.

Agreed.

 

[idea]

I only meant it is pass/fail in terms of retaining or losing faith, the implications of that are another matter.
Sometimes retaining faith is not beneficial.

For my old church, "apostates" were worse than murderers, worse than pedophiles - turn against God - you are shunned, ex-communicated - ... put their bishop in jail (and we did), lose supposed *friends*

God vs church - its all mixed up, one isn't the other, but it is just less painful to believe in the laws of nature - than believe in a God who doesn't answer prayers, who watches the horror on this earth. Better to chalk up all up to - just the laws of nature for me.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I have been having a discussion on another thread with @It Aint Necessarily So, and he claims that the definition of faith is unjustified belief.

@It Aint Necessarily So said: Millions agree with me that belief by faith is unjustified belief whether they use those words or not.

@Trailblazer said: If you are going to try to use that argument, many, many, more millions agree with me that belief by faith is justified belief whether they use those words or not.

Whether faith is justified or unjustified is only a matter of opinion and opinions vary.

I think you've misrepresented some of that discussion. My argument wasn't my definition was correct because many others agreed.

You had written, "You claimed that faith is unjustified belief. The dictionary does not define faith as unjustified belief, so it is only your personal opinion that faith is unjustified." You were claiming that what is a consensus among critical thinkers was only my opinion.

And yes, even your dictionary defined faith as unjustified belief, although you apparently didn't recognize that. The dictionary definition you provided, is actually a definition of religious faith, but all we need do is remove God and religion from the definition and replace them any other unjustified belief: "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof." Spiritual apprehension doesn't justify anything. Evidence properly understood does.

And I explained why what the millions you referred to didn't justify their belief by academic standards. Whatever criteria they used were private and justify nothing. How do I know? Because no sound argument concludes. "therefore, God," meaning that that position can only be come to without proper justification.

I argue that people have to have faith in anything they cannot prove

You just made my case.

 

[rocala]

Its called elevation- it doesn't verify truth, its a herd bonding instinct, let's birds migrate and bees build hives - group think.

Wow, what a hasty judgement. Do you have a video about people who are compelled to stick labels on others?

Well, something may be called "elevation" but judging by that video it has nothing to do with what I am trying to describe. I daresay that my skills of communication are limited but for the most part it is not much talked about and does not seem to be related to herds. Quite the opposite in my experience. Neither do you hear the names of deities or gurus. There is no wham-bang moment, you don't walk around with a smile describing your epiphany.

The most intriguing thing I have found is that you do not learn anything - you remember it. And you don't rush off and join a religious organization.

 

[Trailblazer]

For my old church, "apostates" were worse than murderers, worse than pedophiles - turn against God - you are shunned, ex-communicated - ... put their bishop in jail (and we did), lose supposed *friends*

Sorry you had that experience. I was never a Christian so I never attended church so I never experienced that. I can only imagine how bad that must have been.

God vs church - its all mixed up, one isn't the other, but it is just less painful to believe in the laws of nature - than believe in a God who doesn't answer prayers, who watches the horror on this earth. Better to chalk up all up to - just the laws of nature for me.

I can see how that got all mixed up as it was hard to separate God from the church.
But I do know what you mean about the horrors on earth and I have been close to losing my faith for a long time because of all the suffering I see in the world, including my own. The reason I have been able to retain my faith in God is because of my belief in God was so strong, so I had to somehow reconcile the suffering with a loving God, Believe me, it did not come easy. That s why I started this thread:

Convince me that God is loving

I was finally able to reconcile it when I was able to separate the suffering from God and realize that God does not cause it, it is just part and parcel of living in a material world.

 

[idea]

I was finally able to reconcile it when I was able to separate the suffering from God and realize that God does not cause it, it is just part and parcel of living in a material world.

have to redefine god - that god is not a creator, god is not all-powerful, god is not all-knowing - not sure what to call it when it is no longer any of those things.

I'm now SBNA spiritual but not affiliated, not religious. Yes - I see conscience/self-awareness, call it "spirit" although that word has so much baggage, but there is something that makes us alive, there might be something after this life - but I cannot believe there is any all-powerful/loving/creator spirit - in heaven as it is on earth perhaps? different kingdoms, different rulers, many *gods* - no single god haha. we'll see.

hope, faith? wishful thinking - the reality. have to face reality.