Faith can persevere through hopelessness. Hope cannot persevere through hopelessness. Hope is closely related to faith, but faith is more than just hope.
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Some people hope for things they don't have faith in, but some people hope for things they also have faith in.
When it comes to my religious beliefs, I have hope for what I also have faith in...
When it comes to my personal life, right now my hope is very shaky so I am trying to have faith so I don't lose the little hope I have.
I put my faith in God since I don't think I can effectuate the changes by myself.
I do understand his point but it does not always apply, IMO. My own spiritual beliefs have come about over time and are not the result of some 'special' book.and he claims that the definition of faith is unjustified belief.
I can't really make the comparison with going to church. Maybe that's a different use of the word faith.
I agree, untested it is not really faith, it is only belief. I have been tested so much that I know that only too well.some people go to church for 30 years, and their faith in their friends, and preachers, and church leaders - nothing major happens.... and they never understand - as I did not - those who change. they think they understand belief, think they understand faith - untested it's not faith.
perhaps understanding love - it has to be tested?
perhaps understanding faith - it has to be tested?
what is the answer to the test, is there a right or wrong answer?
Can you elaborate on that, what science are you talking about?Yeah, but here is the joke. There is a reason how come there is a version of science that is build on axiomatic assumptions, which are not considered true and this version of science has nothing to do with truth.
You are in effect doing philosophy. But in philosophy there is no consensus on what truth is or even if it is possible.
In these debate there is always also philosophy and not religion versus the truth.
I agree, untested it is not really faith, it is only belief. I have been tested so much that I know that only too well.
Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?
It is a pass/fail test. We either lose faith or we retain it.
“… from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5 “
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9
Thanks, that is good to know. I am alone so I need to find resources. I trust God to guide me but I have to do the footwork.I was forced to change a few things - alone - found the resources, made decisions, became my own authority (rather than relying on religious authority), had to do it for kids. I didn't think I could get through it myself either, but I did.
That is not really an issue I think unless one assumes that having faith in something is a bad thing.But as I said in my OP, no amount of evidence, no matter how strong, is going to serve as proof of God unless it is verifiable evidence.
I'm not sure anyone of the apostles etc. has ever claimed anything else.The upshot is that there is no way to believe in God without faith since we can never have proof that God exists.
....A sixth sense, a psychic ability, call it what you will. When it happens, it has a quality that distinguishes it from other sensations.
That to me is the basis of my faith. I can offer no proof beyond rarely finding somebody who knows exactly what I am talking about. But I believe.
I only meant it is pass/fail in terms of retaining or losing faith, the implications of that are another matter.I did not retain faith, but do not see it as a fail - my kids won. Almost lost one, suicidal - they would not be alive if I had *kept the faith*
Thanks, that is good to know. I am alone so I need to find resources. I trust God to guide me but I have to do the footwork.
I agree. Faith should not be presented as fact. We can believe it is the truth, but that is a personal belief.That is not really an issue I think unless one assumes that having faith in something is a bad thing.
The issue occurs when faith is presented as truth. Hoping one wins the lottery is not a bad thing, acting as if you already won it and starting spending money that you don't have is not so good
You just stole my two favorite Bible verses.I'm not sure anyone of the apostles etc. has ever claimed anything else.
Here are some quick examples from the bible:
- Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
- Hebrews 11:6. And without faith, it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Agreed.Again, the problem occurs when those that believe in God or have so much faith in it being true are willing to hurt others as a result of it. Like terrorists, people killing abortion doctors and the list goes on. Faith in it self is not necessarily bad.
I only meant it is pass/fail in terms of retaining or losing faith, the implications of that are another matter.
Sometimes retaining faith is not beneficial.
I think you've misrepresented some of that discussion. My argument wasn't my definition was correct because many others agreed.I have been having a discussion on another thread with @It Aint Necessarily So, and he claims that the definition of faith is unjustified belief.
@It Aint Necessarily So said: Millions agree with me that belief by faith is unjustified belief whether they use those words or not.
@Trailblazer said: If you are going to try to use that argument, many, many, more millions agree with me that belief by faith is justified belief whether they use those words or not.
Whether faith is justified or unjustified is only a matter of opinion and opinions vary.
You just made my case.I argue that people have to have faith in anything they cannot prove
Wow, what a hasty judgement. Do you have a video about people who are compelled to stick labels on others?Its called elevation- it doesn't verify truth, its a herd bonding instinct, let's birds migrate and bees build hives - group think.
Sorry you had that experience. I was never a Christian so I never attended church so I never experienced that. I can only imagine how bad that must have been.For my old church, "apostates" were worse than murderers, worse than pedophiles - turn against God - you are shunned, ex-communicated - ... put their bishop in jail (and we did), lose supposed *friends*
I can see how that got all mixed up as it was hard to separate God from the church.God vs church - its all mixed up, one isn't the other, but it is just less painful to believe in the laws of nature - than believe in a God who doesn't answer prayers, who watches the horror on this earth. Better to chalk up all up to - just the laws of nature for me.
I was finally able to reconcile it when I was able to separate the suffering from God and realize that God does not cause it, it is just part and parcel of living in a material world.