What is faith without works and is baptism necessary?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Don't you think it's a bit unfair to require something from new testament believers, that wasn't required of old testament believers?

That would be pretty near the bottom of the "unfair things in the Bible" list, IMO.

 

[Danmac]

That would be pretty near the bottom of the "unfair things in the Bible" list, IMO.

Yes, but that is the fault of capitalism.

 

[diosangpastol]

Can someone tell me which one is the correct formula of salvation?

A. FAITH = SALVATION, then the evidence is WORKS
B. FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION

Thanks ...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Can someone tell me which one is the correct formula of salvation?

A. FAITH = SALVATION, then the evidence is WORKS
B. FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION

Thanks ...

Can you think of more options?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, but that is the fault of capitalism.

How exactly was the slaughtering of the first-born of Egypt, for instance, the fault of capitalism? Did the Egyptians not pay God enough money?

What does capitalism have to do with the fact that God was apparently willing to motivate Saul/Paul to faith by striking him off his horse, appearing before him and literally speaking to him, while the vast majority of people never experience any sign of God at all... yet are expected to have faith anyhow?

 

[Katzpur]

Can someone tell me which one is the correct formula of salvation?

A. FAITH = SALVATION, then the evidence is WORKS
B. FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION

Thanks ...

If I had to choose one of those options, I'd go with 'B'. In reality, there's a bit more to it than that.

 

[Green Kepi]

Don't you think it's a bit unfair to require something from new testament believers, that wasn't required of old testament believers?

If you're asking me...it seems unfair to the Old Testament believers...don't you realize that they had to observe 613 Commandments? How many do the New have? We have it ALOT easier!!!!

 

[Hawkins]

If you're asking me...it seems unfair to the Old Testament believers...don't you realize that they had to observe 613 Commandments? How many do the New have? We have it ALOT easier!!!!

On the other hand, they are protected from being accussed by Satan, as Moses is the old Jews' accuser.

 

[Hawkins]

Can someone tell me which one is the correct formula of salvation?

A. FAITH = SALVATION, then the evidence is WORKS
B. FAITH + WORKS = SALVATION

Thanks ...

Only A works. Theologically, this is the way how salvation is defined in the Covenant, that is, faith alone saves.

B doesn't even work for some humans who can't even work, say, the paralysed on the hospital beds.

Works thus are for your self-evalution about your own salvation status. It also allows others to do you an evaluation. Moreover, works are also of teh best testimony in standing court as a proof that you are the saved in accordance to the New Covenant.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Only A works. Theologically, this is the way how salvation is defined in the Covenant, that is, faith alone saves.

Funny... I've run into many Christians who have said that the only thing that saves is God's grace.

 

[Katzpur]

Funny... I've run into many Christians who have said that the only thing that saves is God's grace.

Ultimately, it is. Even though I believe, for instance that we are saved by a combination of faith and works, if God were to choose to say, "I've changed my mind. You have faith and you've been really obedience all your life, but I just don't feel like forgiving you and so I'm not going to," He could. People confuse faith and grace. Faith is a belief in something without hard evidence of its reality. Grace is unmerited divine assistance. Grace actually saves us apart from both faith and works because God is under no obligation to extend it to us.

 

[onegospel]

JESUS SAYS IN MARK 16:16 hE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED. NOW THE QUESTION IS WAS JESUS TELLING THE TRUTH?

 

[Katzpur]

JESUS SAYS IN MARK 16:16 hE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED. NOW THE QUESTION IS WAS JESUS TELLING THE TRUTH?

Why would you doubt Him?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

JESUS SAYS IN MARK 16:16 hE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED. NOW THE QUESTION IS WAS JESUS TELLING THE TRUTH?

That paragraph states That they who believe (your message) and are Baptised will be saved. He that believeth not, shall be damned.
It does not say "ONLY" those who believe and are baptised will be saved. It is talking about those, that the apostles preach to.

This is more about Faith than Baptism as the verses that follow make clear.

This is all in the context of Jesus commissioning the 11 before he Ascended.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

JESUS SAYS IN MARK 16:16 hE THAT BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED. NOW THE QUESTION IS WAS JESUS TELLING THE TRUTH?

He also says in Matthew 19:21 "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Was Jesus telling the truth?

 

[Ronald]

He told the Truth! Christians just do not need to obey because Jesus died for them--------------------------to be able to go on doing exactlly what they want to do------------------------------------------------they are forgiven for all their sins, past present and future. GOD forbid!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are warned not to continue in sin many times by many people.

Let's all sin a little, so grace may abound!!!

 

[james2ko]

He also says in Matthew 19:21 "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Was Jesus telling the truth?

He was certainly telling the truth to that rich young ruler.

 

[lunamoth]

I hear the argument a lot about all you have to do to be saved is to call upon the name of the Lord and believe and trust him with all of your heart and you will be saved. Yes I think that's an important stage but don't you think that's too easy to just believe and say that you're saved and that God wants more from us than that? In James 2:18-20 it says But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? That right there shows that we need to show our works and obey him. The reason I've been looking at this more closely is I know a lot of people who don't think they need to be baptized for the remission of their sins where it clearly states it in Acts 2:38 where it says Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. You can go throughout the New Testament too and find many examples of people being baptized including Jesus himself (Matthew 3).

Grace is God always, unconditionally extending his love to us. Faith is our grasping of that love. "Works," taking that love out into the world, is our response to God's love. If you take hold of God's love ('have faith') you are 'saved.' It is a tautology - if you choose love you have love. If you deny love (blaspheme the Holy Spirit) you have turned your back on love. All love is God's love.

Re baptism: Baptism is one door to God's love. Through it you join a community (mystical Body) devoted to bringing God's love to the world.

 

[jtartar]

What about the thief on the cross? Did he have any works? Was he baptized?

Reverend Rick,
These are interesting scriptures. Jesus was actually killed between two men. It seem that both started to taunt Jesus, but one changed his mind about Jesus and believed in him. The kind evildoer was not baptized, but Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus in paradise. This shows that baptism is not a hard and fast rule, but it is a requirement for all who want to be saved. Of course, if a person is planning to get baptized on a certain day and is killed the day before, he would be looked on as having been baptized.
Another point is very important in these verses. Notice that Jesus said; Truely I tell you today, you will be with men in paradise. NOT, Truely I tell you, TODAY, you will be with me in paradise. Jesus did not go back to heaven until forty days after he was resurrected, so the man could not have been with Jesus that day.
Another important point; This man is going to be resurrected back to earth, whereas the other people who put faith in Jesus in the first century are going to be resurrected to heaven to be KIngs and Priests over the earth for the 100o year Judgement Day, John 5:28,28 is the General Resurrection, Rev 20:4-7, 7:4,9, 5:9,10, are partakers of the First Resurrection, and will become spirit creatures, and immortal, 1Cor 15:51-54. They will be BORN AGAIN as spirit people, John 3:3-8, 2Cor 5:17. Jesus was resurrected as a spirit and so will all the ones who have the hope of being co-heirs with Jesus of the Kingdom of God, 1Cor 15:50, Rom 8:17, 1Pet 3:18-22, Rev 20:5,6.

 

[Katzpur]

Also, how do you know that when Jesus told a set group of people that they must be baptized to be saved, it was a general instruction for all of humanity and not a specific instruction for those individual people? You can only make an inference one way or the other with some sort of idea about what Jesus meant, and I think that the question of why God would want baptism is relevant to figuring out what Jesus did mean. No?

Why would He require one group of people to be baptized and not another, particularly since it's not a difficult commandment to obey? The last thing He told His Apostles before ascending into Heaven was, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." That sounds to me like the "set group of people" that was supposed to be baptized was "all nations."

(Not to worry, though... if you don't get around to it, we LDS will take care of it for you. )