1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What is faith without works and is baptism necessary?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by km1141, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. km1141

    km1141 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2011
    Messages:
    8
    Ratings:
    +1
    I hear the argument a lot about all you have to do to be saved is to call upon the name of the Lord and believe and trust him with all of your heart and you will be saved. Yes I think that's an important stage but don't you think that's too easy to just believe and say that you're saved and that God wants more from us than that? In James 2:18-20 it says But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? That right there shows that we need to show our works and obey him. The reason I've been looking at this more closely is I know a lot of people who don't think they need to be baptized for the remission of their sins where it clearly states it in Acts 2:38 where it says Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. You can go throughout the New Testament too and find many examples of people being baptized including Jesus himself (Matthew 3).
     
  2. AllanV

    AllanV Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    733
    Ratings:
    +34
    Being saved and salvation are the same word and it is the beginning not the completion.
    Salvation begins with baptism. A seed or deposit is held within and is necessary to take the recipient all the way to the fullness of Christ. The gifting will be obvious.

    Faith will take an individual all the way into the holy place, the sanctuary of God.
    The scripture says to do the Will of God from the heart. This is totally energized in the heart area with a power that can only be called Love from a perfect, pure mind and heart. This is the work that needs to be done. This makes the person totally useful to God.
    This is escaping the Kingdom of Satan and entering the Kingdom of God.
     
  3. Reverend Rick

    Reverend Rick Frubal Whore
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    20,941
    Ratings:
    +3,198
    What about the thief on the cross? Did he have any works? Was he baptized?
     
  4. AllanV

    AllanV Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    733
    Ratings:
    +34
    There is water baptism and then the baptism of the spirit. The works I believe are being energized in the heart with God's Love. And the proper release of the giftings.
    An individual and a church are useful to God when the heart and mind changes.

    The Holy spirit was given at Pentecost after Jesus had risen.
    In the old Testament there are some verses that say the day of a persons death is better than their birth. Jesus may have meaning this or along those lines.
     
  5. ellenjanuary

    ellenjanuary Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,245
    Ratings:
    +115
    Justified by faith alone means that I'm already on my glorious way; added to that, the known works I have done regardless speak to the quality of my character as a servant of the Lord...

    ...is kinda the ideal, without a whole lotta Paul. ;)
     
  6. tomato1236

    tomato1236 Ninja Master

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Messages:
    1,267
    Ratings:
    +60
    I dunno. Maybe the thief could be baptized after death?
     
  7. Green Kepi

    Green Kepi Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    625
    Ratings:
    +32
    First, please note that this man was probably not a thief. By Roman Law thieves were not crucified. Yes, he was a 'criminal' but the word used probably meant, revolutionary bandit.

    Anyway...Jesus had not yet died, so the man could not have been "baptized" in Jesus' death. You are correct, one is not saved by works, but baptism is not a work of the man or woman...its a work of God, not the individual (Colossians 2:10-12).

    Any preacher or teacher who states that all that is needed is to respond to the "alter call" and salvation is at the point of "belief only" when expressed by the so-called "sinner's prayer" (in my opinion) is teaching error. The clear Plan of Salvation is plainly stated in Scripture....
     
  8. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,392
    Ratings:
    +50
    One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us!"
    40 But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
    41 And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
    42 And he said, "YESHUA, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
    43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."
    By his works(profession of faith) Asking Yeshua to remember him in Yeshua's kingdom, he was saved.
    I have no doubt had he been spared the cross the believer would have asked for water and be baptized. A deathbed confession of faith is a good confession, if spared and he does the same old things, would he be saved? Not likely.
    By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who does not love his brother.
    Do you think it would be doing right to be saved and not being baptized?
     
  9. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,210
    Ratings:
    +867
    Religion:
    UU/Atheist
    Faith, works, and salvation are all terms that come about when the message of Jesus has been distorted by literalism and dogma. As for Baptism though. From my Gnostic perspective Baptism is a symbol, a point of focus, through which to attune oneself to the mystic Christ. Without the proper gnosis of what Baptism symbolizes you may as well go stand under your water hose for all the good it'll do you.
     
  10. Green Kepi

    Green Kepi Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    625
    Ratings:
    +32
    Granted...we all seem to believe the man hanging next to Jesus was saved "without" baptism; however, again...(baptism) represents the 'death, burial, and resurrection' of Jesus. Jesus had yet to die to His earthly body. And, yes, Phoenix...without the proper understanding of what baptism achieves and does...one does just "get wet". 1 Cor. 15:2 tells us that by His Gospel we are saved...showing that just believing is not enough. It's following all His commandments to the best of our abilities. None of us are completely correct on any of this...its just our sincere attempt to understand His Will. Which requires much studies....
     
  11. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    15,216
    Ratings:
    +2,949
    Religion:
    Anglican...heretic
    Baptism was certainly required by Jesus teachings. However the effect of being baptised is far from clear.
    It is suggested by some denominations that it is the washing away of sin.
    others that it is the receiving of the Holy Ghost.
    Still others that it is being received into Christs Church.
    Some churches reserve the giving of the Holy Ghost, to the Laying on of Hands by a Bishop, in the Confirmation. Or of being anointed.

    During Jesus mission he made it clear that it was the Faith of those he healed that healed them, he repeated that many times. Few of them, if any, were baptised, so baptism was clearly not essential to receive healing from him.

    Original sin or sin from the mythical Adam. is not believed by many Christians. Those who wish to, can argue either point of view by use of Biblical passages. However such argument never leads to agreement.

    Very few people, of any denomination, Understand what Baptism "achieves" Still fewer will be in any sort of agreement.

    It would seem to be an "essential Mystery"

    very many churches practise both adult and Infant baptism.
    Baptism requires the prior confession and repentance of sin to God.
    In the Anglican faith there is only one sacrament of Baptism.
    However infants, who are sinless, are unable to repent sins. They are never the less baptised.

    I have difficulty understanding how any ceremony is required for the receiving of the Holy Ghost. as he is active amongst us and within us at all times.
    The most any ceremony can do is to remind us of that fact, and for us to recognise it.
     
  12. opuntia

    opuntia Religion is Law

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    189
    Ratings:
    +15
    Baptism is necessary if people want to enter into the kingdom of God. As for faith, people can believe without being a member of that kingdom but they will not receive any of the benefits a baptised person will receive.

    If you will study the matter as one being a matter of entering into a contract with God, then baptism may make sense. Paul wrote about Jesus being "the mediator of a better covenant." (Hebrews 8:6; KJV). The old covenant was the law Moses received upon the mountain (Jeremiah 31:31-34). In the new covenant, baptism is the gateway or first level of commitment to Christianity or the kingdom Jesus established.
     
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    54,266
    Ratings:
    +13,002
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    Why would God care about baptism?

    At least, why would God care about the baptism we see today?

    I remember a while back, sojourner mentioned something that stuck with me: he said something about how in some early Christian baptisms, the person would be held under water until he nearly drowned. That I can get: you're going through a major, profound, probably life-changing experience... and in the thinking of the people doing it, you didn't just nearly die; you did die. You "died with Christ".

    So... I can understand the idea that God would care about that sort of baptism, but why would God care that people just get dunked or have water splashed on them? Why would God consider that so big a deal as to hang salvation on it?
     
  14. Green Kepi

    Green Kepi Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    625
    Ratings:
    +32
    Why would God care about baptism?

    Why? The same reason He cared about it and established it in Old Testament Times for Gentiles wanting to follow the Jewish (religion) Old Law...to become a proselyte. The person was baptized/cleansed...even was referred to as being born-again. Also, if one really studies what the early Christians did, they actually held their hands straight out (while in the water) and squatted down completely under the water for a total of 3 times. No one assisted them. Found in the Romans Catacombs, was a drawing of John on the bank as Jesus was walking out from baptizing Himself.
     
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,557
    Ratings:
    +5,489
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    That's an impossible question to answer, Rick. A lot of thieves have done good things in their lives and I'll bet you could find a whole lot of people in prison today who have been baptized.
     
  16. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,557
    Ratings:
    +5,489
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    That's odd, because that's certainly not what the New Testament says happened.
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    29,557
    Ratings:
    +5,489
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    I don't think it's up to us to decide why God cares about something or to decide that we don't think He's justified in requiring it. Through Jesus Christ's words and example, we know that's what God expects of us.
     
  18. Green Kepi

    Green Kepi Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    625
    Ratings:
    +32
    Not too odd...yes, Acts 8 has two people going down into the water...however, nothing is said of him being 'dunked' as done today (by some). Jews didn't know of the way its done today. Anyway, the baptism had to be observed by 2 or more to witness and verify it...maybe with two going down into the water of the river or creek...they were helping them into and out of the water. Who knows...I just mentioned what was found. Probably drawn by an eye-witness of one that had happened. You are correct...its still "odd"...:)
     
  19. Danmac

    Danmac Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,632
    Ratings:
    +135
    Don't you think it's a bit unfair to require something from new testament believers, that wasn't required of old testament believers?
     
  20. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    54,266
    Ratings:
    +13,002
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    But I think you need to make some consideration of God's intent to make that inference. Jesus did lots of things; how do you know he considered baptism (which the Gospels say he partook of "to fulfil all righteousness"... though they also say something similar about why he rode into Jerusalem on a colt and a donkey) to be more important than, say, ritual foot-washing (which he seemed to place great importance on when he did it for the Apostles, even explicitly saying that it was an example that he wanted them to follow)?

    Also, how do you know that when Jesus told a set group of people that they must be baptized to be saved, it was a general instruction for all of humanity and not a specific instruction for those individual people? You can only make an inference one way or the other with some sort of idea about what Jesus meant, and I think that the question of why God would want baptism is relevant to figuring out what Jesus did mean. No?
     
Loading...