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What is Brahman Doing?

ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
Everyone, even Krishna, accepts that - experiences/witnesses goes on and cannot be ignored. But the thing is, the identification/think/question about "Is there mind now? Is there world Now? Is there Maya Now? Is there only me witnessing me? Is there Brahman? I am All? I am ME?" - all these vanishes but not the experiences/witnesses, even in paramarthika level.
Good! It does not.
Your mention of KRshNa attracted me to this post

But, in case of giving a name of "Eternal witness", is the thing I doubt about, because as I asked above, if Maha pralaya happens and everything goes subtle, then there is nothing to witness in gross form, then how can "Brahman/ME" be called "Eternal Witness or Eternal Sat-chit-Ananda"?

Thank you.

In that case, I remain as Chaitanya. Here Chaitanya is an abstract noun. Chaitanya is aware of its ChetanA.
Chaitanya exists. Is. TO BE.
Chaitanya also witnesses the subtle -- sUkshma, but before sUkshma comes the plasma.
Gross is very gross.
At the pralay stage, gross is long gone. Even subtle-immediately-next-to-gross is gone.
Observation is not just of gross.
Observation is of Being. IMHO.
 

Viswa

Active Member
Please allow me to attempt this approach...

Can you explain to me what the mechanics of skydiving are?

First, allowing the gravity and use it to reach down faster. Then, air resistance acts upward from the point of Terminal velocity, so a constant speed is maintained in falling. Then, Chute to land...
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
First, allowing the gravity and use it to reach down faster. Then, air resistance acts upward from the point of Terminal velocity, so a constant speed is maintained in falling. Then, Chute to land...

What does the free fall feel like. What does it feel like falling through a cloud? What is the sensation when the chute opens?
 

Viswa

Active Member
Good! It does not.
Your mention of KRshNa attracted me to this post

:)

In that case, I remain as Chaitanya. Here Chaitanya is an abstract noun. Chaitanya is aware of its ChetanA.
Chaitanya exists. Is. TO BE.
Chaitanya also witnesses the subtle -- sUkshma, but before sUkshma comes the plasma.
Gross is very gross.
At the pralay stage, gross is long gone. Even subtle-immediately-next-to-gross is gone.
Observation is not just of gross.
Observation is of Being. IMHO.

So, you say that, even between Maha pralaya and creation, in that gap too, Chetana is present, and Chaitanya is aware of Chetana on that time too, where time/space itself not present.

But, I heard that, only Maha Vishnu is present in a child form floating on a leaf, where everything he holds in a subtle form in his stomach by merging everything back to Avyakta, and he sleeps... Then, he wakes up and everything wakes up. He illumines, and everything is lighten up. Before that, he sleeps and everything sleeps. So, Chetana present at that time too and aware in his sleeping??

Maybe... Thank you. :)
 

Viswa

Active Member
What does the free fall feel like. What does it feel like falling through a cloud? What is the sensation when the chute opens?
Oops Sorry. I just read the Mechanics, I don't have any such experience.

Maybe on the time of Chute, Someone pulls backward??
 

Viswa

Active Member
First thing, do not 'sir' me. It is a colonial residue. Just call me Aup. We do not know why some thing exists or does not exist, like things that happen in Quantum Mechanics. Existence is a human perception. Is the universe or Brahman bound by human perception? Some in science propose multi-verse solution, some suggest many-universes theory. Is 'what exist' due to space/energy/time. The answers are not available at present. One may guess, but keep it tentative. It is a question to be answered in future.
Hey, Aup. You are right. But, you know, no answer can be drawn on anytime even in future, and so it is called as "Maya". Multi-verse, if one thinks it exists, then the thought projects it. If one strongly believes it is not, then thought don't projects it. Science cannot come with a single theory in any time, as there is no such single theory because of "Maya", every theory thought/taught by every scientist, looks apt at that particular point of view. But, as a whole, no theory can come up. If we wait for a solution from science, then waiting never ends...Even in Quantum Mechanics, you know that, only when we start to observe - things happens to be look present, and if not observed - one doesn't know whether particles present or not in a form/being. Weird Quantum. But, I like Bohm's view, of how 'observed' gets changed based on the 'observer'. This what Vedanta/Buddhism says too, based on the 'thinker'/ 'dreamer' point of view of 'knower' - perception of object differs..
There is no way others can find out if one are enlightened or not. And it does not concern others. Generally, if what one says does not suit us, we blandly term the person as a heretic, maverik, or terms like that. People have to make their own journey. But the goal is achieved only if we erase prejudices which have been embedded in our mind by family and society. You are welcome.

Thank you Aup.:D
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Hey, Aup. You are right. But, you know, no answer can be drawn on anytime even in future, and so it is called as "Maya". :D
Your refernce to Quantum Mechanics is nice. I have already said that Brahman (or 'what exists') does nothing. It has no need to do anything. The rest is done by 'maya'. But how do you know what will happen in future? Are you an Abrahamic prophet or a Greek oracle?
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Oops Sorry. I just read the Mechanics, I don't have any such experience.

Maybe on the time of Chute, Someone pulls backward??

This is my point.

One can know the mechanics of Self (Brahman) realization through reading scripture or commentaries or learning from another, but it is the experience of oneness that leads to realization, and subsequently, Moksha.

One can know renunciation of worldly desire leads to liberation, but unless one actually renounces and is stable in remaining unattached, that knowledge does little to bring liberation.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
How then 'two' as "Paramarthika" and "Vyavaharika" remains, as both are nothing but "Brahman"?
It is the presence of an observer, which makes it into two. No observer, no duality. Simple Quantum Mechanics. Mind, creates the duality. Mind can also dissolve duality.
 

Viswa

Active Member
It is the presence of an observer, which makes it into two. No observer, no duality. Simple Quantum Mechanics. Mind, creates the duality. Mind can also dissolve duality.

Yes, Mind creates duality. But, Mind can dissolve duality?? Then, it is individual mind or Cosmic mind?? I see it cannot be dissolved by me/individual mind, but I remain free from duality. Freedom doesn't mean dissolving. Freedom means 'whatever remains, I am free from it'. Even in duality's presence, I am free from it'.

Your refernce to Quantum Mechanics is nice. I have already said that Brahman (or 'what exists') does nothing. It has no need to do anything. The rest is done by 'maya'. But how do you know what will happen in future? Are you an Abrahamic prophet or a Greek oracle

Nope. If there is such one answer, it would have been said in Upanishads/etc...

There is no a whole single answer for the Cosmic Understanding. Relativity won't work in Quantum, vice-versa, and any theory brought up, it won't gets fit in the next discovery. There is no end for discoveries, as all discoveries are brought into being by "strong thoughts", and there will be no end for the "strong thoughts" to bring out new perception and new ideas and new theories.
 

Viswa

Active Member
This is my point.

One can know the mechanics of Self (Brahman) realization through reading scripture or commentaries or learning from another, but it is the experience of oneness that leads to realization, and subsequently, Moksha.

One can know renunciation of worldly desire leads to liberation, but unless one actually renounces and is stable in remaining unattached, that knowledge does little to bring liberation.

Sir, how this "experience of oneness" is sir??

But, why Janaka/Krishna/sages didn't acknowledged this experience as a 'requirement' to find out one enlightened or not?? Is it your own 'belief'??
 

ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
:)
So, you say that, even between Maha pralaya and creation, in that gap too, Chetana is present, and Chaitanya is aware of Chetana on that time too, where time/space itself not present.

But, I heard that, only Maha Vishnu is present in a child form floating on a leaf, where everything he holds in a subtle form in his stomach by merging everything back to Avyakta, and he sleeps... Then, he wakes up and everything wakes up. He illumines, and everything is lighten up. Before that, he sleeps and everything sleeps. So, Chetana present at that time too and aware in his sleeping??

Maybe... Thank you. :)

Chaitanya, Chetana and MahaVishNu on the banyan leaf are not 3 different things or 3 persons.
Chaitanya = Pure Consciousness-Awareness, and also Intelligence.
ChetanA = sentience, alive-ness, same thing.
Difference is in grammer and qualifications. Abstract nouns. chetan is the adjective (sachetan).

Baala Mukunda on the leaf is the very Chaitanya I am talking about. Except that since this thread, topic and your words are advaita jnAna-specific, I dared not bring Baala Mukunda here, but you did!
:)

Just as Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn are the same referred to from different angles.

Chaitanya (abstract) = Pure Consciousness => SacchidAnanda rUpa of Baal Mukunda, the paramAnanda-dAyak.

The very same

karAra vindenda padAravindaM |
mukhAravindena viniveshayantaM |
vaTasya patrasya puTe shayAnam |
bAlam mukundaM manasA smarAmi ||
- Baala MukundAshTaka Shloka 1 ||

I meditate on that Baby Mukunda who lies on the banyan leaf (vaTasya patra) and puts His baby Lotus toe into His Baby Lotus mouth (mukhAravinda) with His baby Lotus palm.

--
So what is this Baala Mukunda Chaitanya aware of ? Himself . Or in Advaita-VedAnta terms - Itself.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Even in duality's presence, I am free from it'.
Nope. If there is such one answer, it would have been said in Upanishads/etc...
... and there will be no end for the "strong thoughts" to bring out new perception and new ideas and new theories.
That does not help. Duality forces you to be in 'Vyavaharika'.
Correct. There was no answer in the Upanishadic times. There is no answer even today (Why something exists?). The answer perhaps lies in future.
I won't be there for long in future. The time for my individuality limited. When and if it is known, it will be known to future generations.
 

Viswa

Active Member
The answer perhaps lies in future.
I won't be there for long in future. The time for my individuality limited. When and if it is known, it will be known to future generations.

Aup, the question itself is in limitation, so answer in any time will also be limited. There will not be a single end for the answer. Sir, Buddha and many sages had many powers and couldn't find those answers even with such magical powers. And so, a maths calculation cannot bring an end for all the theory.

And you know, before the quantum theory found, say few centuries ago, we don't know whether quantum field existed or not. What if, only the 'thirst' for new theory in 'thought', "brought" quantum theory into existence and it was not before?? What if "thirst" for a new theory, brought Relativity into existence by flashing in Einstein's thoughts?? What if "thirst for new theory in Collective One Mind of world" made the apple fall on Newton's head, and that 'thirst' gets fulfilled by a new thought as "Gravity theory"??

What if there is no 'end for this thrist' for new theory and new perceptions and new experience, and that 'thirst' brings every new theories/experience/perceptions/scriptures/knowledge to 'life/being/existence's which might not be present before to be discovered, but created by 'thirst/need'??

In the same way, what if the 'thirst/need' for a right perception by the whole world, puts the old perceptions into bin and creates new one, like - Vedas, Upanishads, Bible, Gitas, Quran, Dhamma, etc..??

What if "everything is created" as it is "needed" as collectively by many, and not present eternally or before??

What if there is no 'one single' correct knowledge, even not Upanishads?? But a 'need' brings those into a 'belief' of "Oh.. This is right and every other is wrong.."??, and all is a play of 'needs' in form of 'thoughts making subtle to gross'??
 
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Viswa

Active Member
Chaitanya, Chetana and MahaVishNu on the banyan leaf are not 3 different things or 3 persons.
Chaitanya = Pure Consciousness-Awareness, and also Intelligence.
ChetanA = sentience, alive-ness, same thing.
Difference is in grammer and qualifications. Abstract nouns. chetan is the adjective (sachetan).

Baala Mukunda on the leaf is the very Chaitanya I am talking about. Except that since this thread, topic and your words are advaita jnAna-specific, I dared not bring Baala Mukunda here, but you did!
:)

Just as Brahman-ParamAtmA-BhagavAn are the same referred to from different angles.

Chaitanya (abstract) = Pure Consciousness => SacchidAnanda rUpa of Baal Mukunda, the paramAnanda-dAyak.

The very same

karAra vindenda padAravindaM |
mukhAravindena viniveshayantaM |
vaTasya patrasya puTe shayAnam |
bAlam mukundaM manasA smarAmi ||
- Baala MukundAshTaka Shloka 1 ||

I meditate on that Baby Mukunda who lies on the banyan leaf (vaTasya patra) and puts His baby Lotus toe into His Baby Lotus mouth (mukhAravinda) with His baby Lotus palm.

--
So what is this Baala Mukunda Chaitanya aware of ? Himself . Or in Advaita-VedAnta terms - Itself.

Sir, how do you say "He is aware of Himself" even at that Maha pralaya time??

He just sleeps and that's what said, but not "Aware of Himself or anything" right???
 

ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
Sir, how do you say "He is aware of Himself" even at that Maha pralaya time??

He just sleeps and that's what said, but not "Aware of Himself or anything" right???
Pleease , I am not a 'sir' , I am AtmA. ameyAtmA. Tat tvam asi.

Well - matter of semantics. You were the one who brought in my Baala Mukunda on the vaTasya patra, not me.

What is Pure Consciousness? (Chaitanya - the only One that remains => is Sat, is Chit, is Ananda! -- is Baby Mukunda! )

It is Awareness. Of what? of BEING.

TurIya is not deep sleep. TuriyAteeta is certainly not deep sleep.

What is Yoga-nidrA of MahA-VishNu? He is not paying attention to the mAyic worldly happenings unless disturbed and woken up, but He is aware, and knows what's going on.
Why is it called Yoga-nidra and not just nidra (sleep) ?
Same happens @ pralay - Chaitanya remains, is aware. (Baby Mukunda on the banyan leaf is full of joy - Ananda. He is hardly sleeping!).

-----
*The question discussed : "Why does 'something' exist?" Because it IS! prem, Ananda, Sat, Chit.
There is no Why for Sat, because Sat is eternal unchanging existence.
Why does existence exist? Ananda, Joy is an inherent attribute, not a Why.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Aup, the question itself is in limitation, so answer in any time will also be limited. There will not be a single end for the answer. Buddha and many sages had many powers and couldn't find those answers even with such magical powers.

And you know, before the quantum theory found, say few centuries ago, we don't know whether quantum field existed or not. What if, only the 'thirst' for new theory in 'thought', "brought" quantum theory into existence and it was not before?? What if "thirst" for a new theory, brought Relativity into existence by flashing in Einstein's thoughts?? What if "thirst for new theory in Collective One Mind of world" made the apple fall on Newton's head, and that 'thirst' gets fulfilled by a new thought as "Gravity theory"??

What if there is no 'end for this thrist' for new theory and new perceptions and new experience, and that 'thirst' brings every new theories/experience/perceptions/scriptures/knowledge to 'life/being/existence's which might not be present before to be discovered, but created by 'thirst/need'??

In the same way, what if the 'thirst/need' for a right perception by the whole world, puts the old perceptions into bin and creates new one, like - Vedas, Upanishads, Bible, Gitas, Quran, Dhamma, etc..??

What if "everything is created" as it is "needed" as collectively by many, and not present eternally or before??

What if there is no 'one single' correct knowledge, even not Upanishads?? But a 'need' brings those into a 'belief' of "Oh.. This is right and every other is wrong.."??, and all is a play of 'needs' in form of 'thoughts making subtle to gross'??
How do we know what will happen in future? That is why I always use 'perhaps' when it comes to future. I do not believe in supernatural powers and Buddha never said that he had any.

The thirst exists because of evolution, because of mind, and sure it will continue for all times. Every thing was not create by our need, we adapt/adapted to what existed. Thoughts will be there in 'Vyavaharika', there are no thoughts in 'Paramarthika'.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Sir, how this "experience of oneness" is sir??

But, why Janaka/Krishna/sages didn't acknowledged this experience as a 'requirement' to find out one enlightened or not?? Is it your own 'belief'??

Calling me “sir” is like putting an elevator in an outhouse. It doesn’t belong. Please stop.

I have no answer for your first question. Can you list the requirements they did acknowledge?

As for your second, it’s not my ‘belief,’ it is my experience.
 

Viswa

Active Member
Calling me “sir” is like putting an elevator in an outhouse. It doesn’t belong. Please stop.
Okay Salix. sorry.
I have no answer for your first question. Can you list the requirements they did acknowledge?

As for your second, it’s not my ‘belief,’ it is my experience.

So, what if 'your experience' brings a strong belief of 'only experience of oneness is liberation' and so other one's belief as 'experience doesn't matter if one understood' is so strong to him??

All requirements, is based on one's belief. If Buddha belief's this is his way, and one wants to go that way, one chooses it. But one, see a different way, like Ramana/etc.., they adhere to his teachings. But, what if all are their own experiences, which became a strong belief of "This is the right way as a I experienced" and set out their own way of requirements, but there is no such thing as requirements as "Everyone is Brahman",. Simple??

The understanding is, "I AM not at all bondaged any moment, so no need of seeking liberation, I AM ALWAYS FREE". So, I understand this , so no need to seek liberation for any Experience/Moksha. Let the world be or not, I am not affected by it, so why to put an end for "life" by a practice/method??
 
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Viswa

Active Member
How do we know what will happen in future? That is why I always use 'perhaps' when it comes to future. I do not believe in supernatural powers and Buddha never said that he had any.

The thirst exists because of evolution, because of mind, and sure it will continue for all times. Every thing was not create by our need, we adapt/adapted to what existed. Thoughts will be there in 'Vyavaharika', there are no thoughts in 'Paramarthika'.

So, you don't believe in supernatural powers?? Then, for sure, it will not be perceived by you as exists. If one believes, then it will surely perceived by one of he seeks for such.

Existence don't create beliefs, but belief creates existence. "WHAT YOU THINK, YOU ARE".
 
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