What is better conditional level or unconditional?

[Link]

This thread is a foundation to more threads to come. Eventually, I want to prove hell and it's forever nature.

However, before we get there, take away hell, take away paradise. Just let's talk about love of two types.

Conditional and unconditional. First how do we define these, I'm suspecting none of them are fully that in the eyes of whatever side you take.

Full unconditional to me, would mean he loves every thing to maximum amount, no matter how evil you are, no one is loved less.

Full conditional to me, means, your love is accordance to your deeds by just measure.

Now in reality, I think both side of debates don't have either.

I'm going to define more where I lie in the spectrum. I believe God's compassionate - there is a universal love type compassion, and this is ultimate to even the worse creatures including Satan. With Satan he feels sorry for that creature with that feeling, but his wrath is such that he doesn't accept him for what he has chosen to be and for his leading astray, is rejected from his mercy and intense grace. So he is damned in God's view and hated as well, but loved in the sense of deep compassion.

Now, also, believers are not going to earn paradise through justice. That's not going to happen. Only few would follow God's light without intercession of his chosen.

Through God's grace and through the intercession of his chosen ones and holding to them, and repenting and prayers, God will accept our little worth of deeds and repay them intensely with his generosity. That is to say, you just got to give some reason for God to love you and grace upon you, and he comes racing to you and amplifies his light and grace upon your soul and you gain insights and knowledge and power you never expected.

So while there are some condition there, all it is, really, is some love towards God and his chosen, and he will pardon our evil and help us defeat it.

However, I do believe evil people and people who rebel against God's guidance, they frankly, must be lower in God's eyes and are despised and hated by him. They won't even give God and his chosen a chance to guide them and come up with all sorts of excuses for not giving the sent ones by him a chance to guide them.

I've seen people say God will forgive us no matter how bad we screwed up, like we love our children, and if our children screw up, we forgive them and wish well for them.

Now this is not to say God doesn't despite the actions of these people, just that, unconditional means God will pardon and still not torture the human being. It's not that he doesn't dislike who the person has become, it's that he sill will guide them.

Now before I go on to show why I believe one over the other. I want people to give me their thoughts. Explain where they put God on the spectrum between conditional and unconditional, as I believe no one is fully on one side or the other.

And I will hear reasons for their spectrum.

 

[Lain]

This thread is a foundation to more threads to come. Eventually, I want to prove hell and it's forever nature.

However, before we get there, take away hell, take away paradise. Just let's talk about love of two types.

Conditional and unconditional. First how do we define these, I'm suspecting none of them are fully that in the eyes of whatever side you take.

Full unconditional to me, would mean he loves every thing to maximum amount, no matter how evil you are, no one is loved less.

Full conditional to me, means, your love is accordance to your deeds by just measure.

Now in reality, I think both side of debates don't have either.

I'm going to define more where I lie in the spectrum. I believe God's compassionate - there is a universal love type compassion, and this is ultimate to even the worse creatures including Satan. With Satan he feels sorry for that creature with that feeling, but his wrath is such that he doesn't accept him for what he has chosen to be and for his leading astray, is rejected from his mercy and intense grace. So he is damned in God's view and hated as well, but loved in the sense of deep compassion.

Now, also, believers are not going to earn paradise through justice. That's not going to happen. Only few would follow God's light without intercession of his chosen.

Through God's grace and through the intercession of his chosen ones and holding to them, and repenting and prayers, God will accept our little worth of deeds and repay them intensely with his generosity. That is to say, you just got to give some reason for God to love you and grace upon you, and he comes racing to you and amplifies his light and grace upon your soul and you gain insights and knowledge and power you never expected.

So while there are some condition there, all it is, really, is some love towards God and his chosen, and he will pardon our evil and help us defeat it.

However, I do believe evil people and people who rebel against God's guidance, they frankly, must be lower in God's eyes and are despised and hated by him. They won't even give God and his chosen a chance to guide them and come up with all sorts of excuses for not giving the sent ones by him a chance to guide them.

I've seen people say God will forgive us no matter how bad we screwed up, like we love our children, and if our children screw up, we forgive them and wish well for them.

Now this is not to say God doesn't despite the actions of these people, just that, unconditional means God will pardon and still not torture the human being. It's not that he doesn't dislike who the person has become, it's that he sill will guide them.

Now before I go on to show why I believe one over the other. I want people to give me their thoughts. Explain where they put God on the spectrum between conditional and unconditional, as I believe no one is fully on one side or the other.

And I will hear reasons for their spectrum.

I like St. Thomas' answer on whether or not God loves some more than others and I think it is related to this topic:

"Since to love a thing is to will it good, in a twofold way anything may be loved more, or less. In one way on the part of the act of the will itself, which is more or less intense. In this way God does not love some things more than others, because He loves all things by an act of the will that is one, simple, and always the same. In another way on the part of the good itself that a person wills for the beloved. In this way we are said to love that one more than another, for whom we will a greater good, though our will is not more intense. In this way we must needs say that God loves some things more than others. For since God's love is the cause of goodness in things, as has been said, no one thing would be better than another, if God did not will greater good for one than for another."

I am not sure how to think of the word "conditional" concerning God because I hold that He is the ultimate cause of all things as they are and is not surprised by anything. Would it just be conditioned on Himself then ("He works out everything by the counsel of His will")? For He is the one who gives us goods and takes them away. I'll have to think about it more.

All of the above is my opinion.

 

[Link]

I am not sure how to think of the word "conditional" concerning God because I hold that He is the ultimate cause of all things as they are and is not surprised by anything.

I'm using it into two extremes, then hoping people take that as spectrum, and tell me where they put their concept of God in. I don't think anyone believes God to be one extreme so I want to see how they "balance" God so to speak.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I don't believe in God, so it's hard for me to answer. But I see love as conditional (albeit possible to get somewhat close to unconditional) and would answer along those lines.
Conditional, for me.

 

[Link]

I don't believe in God, so it's hard for me to answer. But I see love as conditional (albeit possible to get somewhat close to unconditional) and would answer along those lines.
Conditional, for me.

If you can elaborate it would be appreciated.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

However, I do believe evil people and people who rebel against God's guidance, they frankly, must be lower in God's eyes and are despised and hated by him. They won't even give God and his chosen a chance to guide them and come up with all sorts of excuses for not giving the sent ones by him a chance to guide them.

So God hates who you hate?

 

[Link]

So God hates who you hate?

That's one way to phrase it. Another way, is I have come to terms to hate who God hates.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's one way to phrase it. Another way, is I have come to terms to hate who God hates.

Why hate? Why not spread love and kindness in this world?

God does not hate....only human hold hate within in the when they don't accept that people are different to them self.

The pain you feel in this word comes from within you.

 

[Fool]

This thread is a foundation to more threads to come. Eventually, I want to prove hell and it's forever nature.

However, before we get there, take away hell, take away paradise. Just let's talk about love of two types.

Conditional and unconditional. First how do we define these, I'm suspecting none of them are fully that in the eyes of whatever side you take.

Full unconditional to me, would mean he loves every thing to maximum amount, no matter how evil you are, no one is loved less.

Full conditional to me, means, your love is accordance to your deeds by just measure.

Now in reality, I think both side of debates don't have either.

I'm going to define more where I lie in the spectrum. I believe God's compassionate - there is a universal love type compassion, and this is ultimate to even the worse creatures including Satan. With Satan he feels sorry for that creature with that feeling, but his wrath is such that he doesn't accept him for what he has chosen to be and for his leading astray, is rejected from his mercy and intense grace. So he is damned in God's view and hated as well, but loved in the sense of deep compassion.

Now, also, believers are not going to earn paradise through justice. That's not going to happen. Only few would follow God's light without intercession of his chosen.

Through God's grace and through the intercession of his chosen ones and holding to them, and repenting and prayers, God will accept our little worth of deeds and repay them intensely with his generosity. That is to say, you just got to give some reason for God to love you and grace upon you, and he comes racing to you and amplifies his light and grace upon your soul and you gain insights and knowledge and power you never expected.

So while there are some condition there, all it is, really, is some love towards God and his chosen, and he will pardon our evil and help us defeat it.

However, I do believe evil people and people who rebel against God's guidance, they frankly, must be lower in God's eyes and are despised and hated by him. They won't even give God and his chosen a chance to guide them and come up with all sorts of excuses for not giving the sent ones by him a chance to guide them.

I've seen people say God will forgive us no matter how bad we screwed up, like we love our children, and if our children screw up, we forgive them and wish well for them.

Now this is not to say God doesn't despite the actions of these people, just that, unconditional means God will pardon and still not torture the human being. It's not that he doesn't dislike who the person has become, it's that he sill will guide them.

Now before I go on to show why I believe one over the other. I want people to give me their thoughts. Explain where they put God on the spectrum between conditional and unconditional, as I believe no one is fully on one side or the other.

And I will hear reasons for their spectrum.

loving someone doesn't require or allow for apathy, or abuse. loving unconditionally is the golden rule realized. it holds everyone accountable. a parent doesn't stop loving their child; when they correct them. a teacher doesn't stop loving their pupil; when they correct them. a person can love someone and still hold them accountable for directly impacting someone, or themselves negatively.

 

[Link]

loving someone doesn't require or allow for apathy, or abuse. loving unconditionally is the golden rule realized. it holds everyone accountable. a parent doesn't stop loving their child; when they correct them. a teacher doesn't stop loving their pupil; when they correct them. a person can love someone and still hold them accountable for directly impacting someone negatively.

Thank you for this. Your input and feedback on spectrum where you put your concept of Creator and balance of love is appreciated.

 

[Link]

Why hate? Why not spread love and kindness in this world?

God does not hate....only human hold hate within in the when they don't accept that people are different to them self.

The pain you feel in this word comes from within you.

Hate has a righteous place or God would not allow it for humans. Everything has a proper place.

 

[Link]

Why hate?

Harsh hate is the only way to deal with oppressors and it's the proper response. Not hating them is injustice to God, the rights of his exalted chosen ones, and the believers who are oppressed by them, and oppressed in general by them.

It's a way to distance. This doesn't mean we let go of compassion and wishing them well. As you know Prophets cared for their people but at the end - they couldn't always save their people. Sometimes just one person or one family is found among the submitters to God despite their efforts.

 

[Fool]

conditional love is biased. conditional love is having respect for self vs other as self. It doesn't follow the golden rule, or standard of law that all are equal under the law. So then such a self would show favoritism to those they consider self's and discriminate against those they consider other.

this can only be maintained by the appearance and isn't based on positive/negative actions. two measures and various weights are an abomination to god. God is associated with justice. Love is being just. having two standards: one for self and self's and then another for otherness is not just, is not loving

 

[Spirit of Light]

Harsh hate is the only way to deal with oppressors and it's the proper response. Not hating them is injustice to God, the rights of his exalted chosen ones, and the believers who are oppressed by them, and oppressed in general by them.

It's a way to distance. This doesn't mean we let go of compassion and wishing them well. As you know Prophets cared for their people but at the end - they couldn't always save their people. Sometimes just one person or one family is found among the submitters to God despite their efforts.

Personally I believe in unconditional love toward all beings, God take care of the ones God see fit

I honestly do not believe in hate

 

[Link]

conditional love is baised. conditional love is having respect for self vs other as self. It doesn't follow the golden rule, or standard of law that are equal under the law. So then such a self would show favoritism to those they consider self's and discriminate against those they consider other.

this can only be maintained by the appearance and isn't based on positive/negative actions. two measures and various weights are an abomination of god. God is associated with justice. Love is being just. having two standards: one for self and self's and then another for otherness is not just, is not loving

Thank you again. The way I see, good and evil are not same, no matter how much we wish to love all, good people deserve to be honored and evil people to be disgraced. Now does it mean evil people shouldn't be reformed and guided eventually by God or will his wrath punish them forever, that is a different manner.

But I can't equate good and evil, guided and misguided, the light seeker and truth seeker, with those apathetic or following falsehood, conjecture and their low desires.

Nor can a worshiper of God through his name be equated with one who makes up God per his imagination and desires and with no proof either in his soul or from a light book or from reasoning/traces of knowledge nor from any inherited attributed teachings to either God or his sent ones.

 

[Link]

Personally I believe in unconditional love toward all beings, God take care of the ones God see fit

I honestly do not believe in hate

Thank you for your input. I believe in hate like Dawood (a) cursed his enemies and disbelievers while a ruler and like Isa (a) cursed disbelievers and his enemies even when not ruling outwardly (though he was ruler of the world and king inwardly).

 

[Fool]

Thank you again. The way I see, good and evil are not same, no matter how much we wish to love all, good people deserve to be honored and evil people to be disgraced. Now does it mean evil people shouldn't be reformed and guided eventually by God or will his wrath punish them forever, that is a different manner.

But I can't equate good and evil, guided and misguided, the light seeker and truth seeker, with those apathetic or following falsehood, conjecture and their low desires.

Nor can a worshiper of God through his name be equated with one who makes up God per his imagination and desires and with no proof either in his soul or from a light book or from reasoning/traces of knowledge nor from any inherited attributed teachings to either God or his sent ones.

there are none of us so good that we aren't capble of doing evil and there are none so evil that aren't capable of good. everyone is capable of both. unfortunately some don't realize that the short term satisfaction isn't going to get them through the long haul.

so total service to self is only possible at the absolute. service to all as self is only possible for anything less. love provides for grace and mercy because sin is made up of ignorance or willful disregard to one's own detriment.

hating is for immature spirits. even the evil hate, hating doesn't alleviate suffering. love alleviates suffering. disliking an action is one thing. hating someone is a whole nother down fall

 

[Link]

there are none of us so good that we aren't capble of doing evil and there are none so evil that aren't capable of good. everyone is capable of both. unfortunately some don't realize that the short term satisfaction isn't going to get them through the long haul.

so total service to self is only possible at the absolute. service to all as self is only possible for anything less. love provides for grace and mercy because sin is made up of ignorance or willful disregard to one's own detriment.

hating is for immature spirits. even the evil hate, hating doesn't alleviate suffering. love alleviates suffering.

Compassion for all alleviates suffering. Love in that sense does. But hate and condemnation of oppressors to me is needed.

And I'm not expecting people to be ultra righteous, this is not my stance. I'm suggesting a stance where we at least give something to God to love us even though we don't deserve it. But rebelling and avoiding his guidance and rejecting his favors upon us and taking side of deceivers over the truthful guides appointed by God due to falsehood we prefer and oppressing the believers for their justice such creatures to me are too dark. I pardon them in the sense I wish they would repent and turn to God and be saved and will do my best by far reaching words to remind them knowing I can't guide who God doesn't and God doesn't change a condition of people unless they change themselves, but if they die in that state, then I am free from them.

Of course, no human if truth is presented purely would reject it. And not even a Jinn if presented falsehood in it's pure form would accept it.

It's a battle, but we have to prefer truth and not mixed the truth with falsehood. We have to prefer God's truth over our conjectures and desires and prefer his guidance over own choice, and follow his authorities over those we give weight to.

 

[Fool]

Compassion for all alleviates suffering. Love in that sense does. But hate and condemnation of oppressors to me is needed.

And I'm not expecting people to be ultra righteous, this is not my stance. I'm suggesting a stance where we at least give something to God to love us even though we don't deserve it. But rebelling and avoiding his guidance and rejecting his favors upon us and taking side of deceivers over the truthful guides appointed by them, and oppressing the believers for their justice such creatures to me are too dark. I pardon them in the sense I wish they would repent and turn to God and be saved and will do my best by far reaching words to remind them knowing I can't guide who God doesn't and God doesn't change a condition of people unless they change themselves, but if they die in that state, then I am free from them.

Of course, no human if truth is presented purely would reject it. And not even a Jinn if presented falsehood in it's pure form would accept it.

It's a battle, but we have to prefer truth and not mixed the truth with falsehood. We have to prefer God's truth over our conjectures and desires and prefer his guidance over own choice, and follow his authorities over those we give weight to.

no one is perfect is the overall problem with this stance. allah is merciful even if believed otherwise. everything serves a purpose.

 

[Link]

no one is perfect is the overall problem with this stance. allah is merciful even if believed otherwise. everything serves a purpose.

God is most compassionate in proper place of mercy and pardon, and most severest in proper place of vengeance and retribution. We may want to escape this reality because it makes uneasy about our fate, but to me, it's clearly a case, hate is not unrighteous except when misapplied.

Everything has a proper place. Hate serves a purpose too. And it's a manifestation of the Divine, but only when he applies his oneness and sheer essence to the rebellious and evil.

And compassion precedes wrath, it's not that they are equal. The proper place of mercy and compassion is that it should precede wrath. God accepts repentance.