What is a real God?

[blü 2]

If we ever encounter a particularly powerful being who can do things we can’t – create universes, destroy worlds, read thoughts, restore the dead to life, convert water to wine, become invisible, act remotely, grant wishes &c – what test will tell us whether that being is God (or, a god) or not?

What, in real terms, is ‘godness’? What real quality does God have that a superscientist doesn’t? What objective test must we apply to resolve the question?

 

[Earthling]

If we ever encounter a particularly powerful being who can do things we can’t – create universes, destroy worlds, read thoughts, restore the dead to life, convert water to wine, become invisible, act remotely, grant wishes &c – what test will tell us whether that being is God (or, a god) or not?

What, in real terms, is ‘godness’? What real quality does God have that a superscientist doesn’t? What objective test must we apply to resolve the question?

The word god means mighty , and or venerated. All a god needs to be is one or both of those things.

A super scientist can be a god, if he is considered mighty or is venerated.

Eric Clapton, for example, is a god. You don't have to "create universes, destroy worlds, read thoughts, restore the dead to life, convert water to wine, become invisible, act remotely, grant wishes &c" to be a god. Anyone or anything can be a god. I have a rather vulgar illustration I use to explain to atheists what a god is.

A man weakened by his long journey stumbles across the grassy plains. Hungry, cold and frightened by the wolves he knows are watching him. There is no wood for a fire, nothing to eat and darkness is falling. He stumbles upon a dried clump of bovine excrement. Lifting it he finds all sorts of creeping things to eat. He looks around and gathers more of the clumps and lights them for a fire, giving him light, food, heat and protection from the wolves, the clumps of excrement become his God.

This simple principle applied to anything or anyone is the same.

 

[Jumi]

If we ever encounter a particularly powerful being who can do things we can’t – create universes, destroy worlds, read thoughts, restore the dead to life, convert water to wine, become invisible, act remotely, grant wishes &c – what test will tell us whether that being is God (or, a god) or not

I'd just call those engineer-scientists or magicians(of the fantasy genre type), depending on how they do it. Lots of people seem to think gods must be some kind of magicians...

 

[blü 2]

A super scientist can be a god, if he is considered mighty or is venerated.

Is there a test, in your view, for what is worthy of veneration?

Or is it an arbitrary personal judgment?

 

[blü 2]

I'd just call those engineer-scientists or magicians(of the fantasy genre type), depending on how they do it. Lots of people seem to think gods must be some kind of magicians...

Do you think God is / gods are real, or just imaginary?

If you think they're real, what is 'godness' ─ what real quality does a god have that distinguishes it as a god from everything that's not a god (not least superscientists)?

 

[Dawnofhope]

If we ever encounter a particularly powerful being who can do things we can’t – create universes, destroy worlds, read thoughts, restore the dead to life, convert water to wine, become invisible, act remotely, grant wishes &c – what test will tell us whether that being is God (or, a god) or not?

What, in real terms, is ‘godness’? What real quality does God have that a superscientist doesn’t? What objective test must we apply to resolve the question?

As a Baha’i I know God through His Manifestations or Great Teachers. Examples are Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah. The main proofs are the example of Their lives and Their teachings. So we need to assess whether or not Their Teachings enable our communities and ourselves to be the best we can be. I have a feeling that test may not be the objective test you’re looking for.

I think you’re looking for a miracle as a proof. The problem with miracles is they are only a proof for those who witness them. The sacred scripture I’m familiar is clear that it is for God to test His servants and not man to test God.

All the best looking for God/gods.

 

[Earthling]

Is there a test, in your view, for what is worthy of veneration?

Or is it an arbitrary personal judgment?

Arbitrary personal judgment.

I don't believe in Zeus. I don't think Zeus ever existed. I don't worship or venerate Zeus. Zeus is a god. I can't change the fact that others attribute might to or venerate Zeus, so Zeus is a god whether I like it or not. He's not my god, but he is a god. It doesn't matter whether or not he existed or I accept him, he still is a god.

 

[Frater Sisyphus]

Generally people conflate the concept of "God" with the concept of a "Deity" or "Deities", this thread is obviously concerned with the latter; being Deity.

Deities are a complex thing, especially considering condescension from the field of psychology. Some theorize people commune with their higher self, others theorize that it's simply just human stupidity, some theorize that they are avatars for human ideals (whether they are real, it would still often be the case), some theorize that deities are just allegorical, who knows?
(famous deities include; Yahweh/Jehovah/Elohim, Horus, Set, Shiva, Vishnu, Shakti, Kali, Eris, Thor, Oden etc.

I don't believe in any deities myself but find them incredibly compelling things.

However, God, is a much more candid concept in my estimation. God, is either the force of nature (and beyond) within the universe, the universe itself or beyond the universe, that may or may not have some level of intelligence. God may be the universe itself, God maybe chaos but God cannot have a face, image or value set on it. I think this is what makes the question "does god exist?" redundant.

The concept of God doesn't at all conflict with science, but the concept of Deity may or may not.




This thread seems to be directed to the Deities of Yahweh and Jesus, to what I can see.............

 

[Epic Beard Man]

If we ever encounter a particularly powerful being who can do things we can’t – create universes, destroy worlds, read thoughts, restore the dead to life, convert water to wine, become invisible, act remotely, grant wishes &c – what test will tell us whether that being is God (or, a god) or not?

What, in real terms, is ‘godness’? What real quality does God have that a superscientist doesn’t? What objective test must we apply to resolve the question?

That is a very good question.

 

[blü 2]

As a Baha’i I know God through His Manifestations or Great Teachers. Examples are Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah. The main proofs are the example of Their lives and Their teachings. So we need to assess whether or not Their Teachings enable our communities and ourselves to be the best we can be. I have a feeling that test may not be the objective test you’re looking for.

I think you’re looking for a miracle as a proof. The problem with miracles is they are only a proof for those who witness them. The sacred scripture I’m familiar is clear that it is for God to test His servants and not man to test God.

All the best looking for God/gods.

Thanks for that.

However, I don't think your proposal that we can know real gods by their followers quite addresses the question, not least because I think the teaching of ethical conduct is not confined to believers.

Actually I introduced the superscientists so as to rule out miracles as a test for godness. Apparently miraculous powers (as Arthur C Clarke observed) are indistinguishable from miracles to those of less advanced technology.

My question is, what is godness as such?

If God is real (or, gods are real) then [he] (or they) must have some real quality that distinguishes [him] (or them) from non-gods, including non-gods with what we'd see as extremely advanced technology. I don't know what that quality could be, hence my question.

 

[blü 2]

Arbitrary personal judgment.

Nice clear answer. Thanks.

I don't believe in Zeus. I don't think Zeus ever existed. I don't worship or venerate Zeus. Zeus is a god.

That seems to contain the assertion that all gods are imaginary ─ is that right?

If so, I agree that imaginary gods can be anything anyone wants them to be, including, I guess, worthy of veneration.

But I'm concerned here with the concept of a real god, a god who exists independently of the imagination of any particular individual ─ because that's an idea I genuinely don't understand.

 

[Earthling]

Nice clear answer. Thanks.
That seems to contain the assertion that all gods are imaginary ─ is that right?

If so, I agree that imaginary gods can be anything anyone wants them to be, including, I guess, worthy of veneration.

No. A god can be real or imaginary, historical or fictional. Frodo was called a god in the late 1960's.

But I'm concerned here with the concept of a real god, a god who exists independently of the imagination of any particular individual ─ because that's an idea I genuinely don't understand.

It's the same thing. Mighty, venerated. A simple dictionary puts it this way. "an adored, admired, or influential person." You may note that a good dictionary will often give a theater gallery as a definition of a god, or the people seated there. That's because the most influential people were seated in the upper balcony. Consider the term godfather.

Jesus was a god, Moses was a God, the judges of Israel were gods, Eric Clapton was a god, the term guitar gods is commonly used.

 

[`mud]

Imagine a `god` that caused you to believe that it caused you.
Spend your life into attaining the source of that cause.
Discover that it was your own imagination, fooling you.
Now...imagine another cause from your imagined source.
And then you die, and your cognizance leaves you.
Where do you find that source, what cause will exist then ?
There is no Nirvana, there's only the Cosmos, cause and source.

 

[Earthling]

Imagine a `god` that caused you to believe that it caused you.
Spend your life into attaining the source of that cause.
Discover that it was your own imagination, fooling you.
Now...imagine another cause from your imagined source.
And then you die, and your cognizance leaves you.
Where do you find that source, what cause will exist then ?
There is no Nirvana, there's only the Cosmos, cause and source.

The cosmos is rocks and gas.

 

[PureX]

If we ever encounter a particularly powerful being who can do things we can’t – create universes, destroy worlds, read thoughts, restore the dead to life, convert water to wine, become invisible, act remotely, grant wishes &c – what test will tell us whether that being is God (or, a god) or not?

What, in real terms, is ‘godness’? What real quality does God have that a superscientist doesn’t? What objective test must we apply to resolve the question?

There is no objective test that can verify a metaphysical ideal. "God" is a metaphysical ideal. It's a way of perceiving and understanding our experience of reality. And cognition/perception is subjective, not objective. Expecting objective verification of a subjective phenomena is incoherent reasoning.

 

[LuisDantas]

IMO there is no objective answer to the OP's question.

"God" is perhaps the supreme arbitrary concept.

 

[`mud]

And Life is Stuff

 

[Earthling]

There is no objective test that can verify a metaphysical ideal. "God" is a metaphysical ideal. It's a way of perceiving and understanding our experience of reality. And cognition/perception is subjective, not objective. Expecting objective verification of a subjective phenomena is incoherent reasoning.

Not necessarily. You are referring to one specific God as if your rule applied to all gods. It doesn't. Some gods are metaphysical concepts, but not all of them. Not all gods are supernatural. There is a difference between gods and God. The term God usually applies to the supernatural God of the Bible, Jehovah. But a god can be a practical thing, or an actual person. A god can be anything or anyone.

 

[`mud]

Like the Stuff of Life

 

[PureX]

Not necessarily. You are referring to one specific God as if your rule applied to all gods. It doesn't. Some gods are metaphysical concepts, but not all of them. Not all gods are supernatural. There is a difference between gods and God. The term God usually applies to the supernatural God of the Bible, Jehovah. But a god can be a practical thing, or an actual person. A god can be anything or anyone.

If I define "God" as an "experience of wetness" (an objective experience/ideal) then I can reasonably expect objective verification for this "God" (as when it rains). But no one defines "God" in such an objective way. At most, some humans define some objective experiences (floods, earthquakes, etc.) as manifestations of their subjectively conceived "God", and then they take those objective experiences as evidence that their subjectively conceived gods 'are real'. But their verification still only works, for them because it is ultimately based on a subjective god-concept, and is thereby not reasonably transferable to anyone else.