What is a "Jihad Ideology"?

[firedragon]

Today I saw a video being shared about a terrorist group in Asia, not a religious group, a terrorist group with no religious agenda as such.

The person who shared it brought in "Jihad Ideology" in the post for whatever reason or motivation of his personal nature. My question, what is this so-called "Jihad Ideology"?

 

[sun rise]

I found this article illuminating: jihad | Meaning, Examples, & Use in the Quran

 

[firedragon]

I found this article illuminating: jihad | Meaning, Examples, & Use in the Quran

Good article. Sometimes in the Quran it just means "try" as in when parents try to change the minds of the children about something.

Why do people talk about a "JIhad Ideology"? Where do they get it from? Obviously they mean some kind of holy war against humanity or something all the time.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Good article. Sometimes in the Quran it just means "try" as in when parents try to change the minds of the children about something.

Why do people talk about a "JIhad Ideology"? Where do they get it from? Obviously they mean some kind of holy war against humanity or something all the time.

Some terrorist groups receive support from religious Muslim groups who view their actions as a jihad. Hence in the West it has become common for people to associate jihad with terrorism and war. In addition there was the time that some Caliphs centuries ago conquered most of Europe, and that was called a jihad. From this we get various usages like "I'm going to go jihad on your butt." Its just basically what happens to words over time, and their meanings get changed. If you want this word to take on its Koranic meaning in western language you're going to have to do a lot of work. Right now it tends to mean war -- usually religious war.

Once a word is put into another language it can become almost anything. For the same reason the Chinese goverment insists upon keeping its ancient non-phonetic written language. Chinese spend years (instead of months) learning to write it. They learn to write it in stages, all so that they can try to keep the meanings of written words from drifting. Now I am curious if the word jihad will drift in China? I don't know.

 

[firedragon]

Some terrorist groups receive support from religious Muslim groups who view their actions as a jihad.

Which terrorist group. Which religious Muslim group. Where did they say "Jihad" and what did they mean by it? Please provide specific details.

In addition there was the time that some Caliphs centuries ago conquered most of Europe, and that was called a jihad.

Please provide specific information where it details them calling "It" Jihad and what they meant. Hope you understand "specific details".

From this we get various usages like "I'm going to go jihad on your butt."

Are you sure you get that from what you said above or from word of mouth awareness you share with eachother?

Its just basically what happens to words over time, and their meanings get changed. If you want this word to take on its Koranic meaning in western language you're going to have to do a lot of work. Right now it tends to mean war -- usually religious war.

This is not about the word. Its about these people who speak about "Jihad Ideology". Please read the OP and if you can provide some details pertaining to that it would be nice.

Right now it tends to mean war -- usually religious war.

Isn't that predominantly with non-arabic speaking crowd? Do 1.8 billion Muslims think the same? Arent you speaking from anecdotal experience but you are ignoring the Muslims who represent a quarter of the world and they don't generally make the same association like you. So isnt that strange? Think about it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why do people talk about a "JIhad Ideology"? Where do they get it from?

From radical islamic militia's in the middle east (and elsewhere) who put out video's and statements calling for holy war which they call "jihad"..

People in non-muslim countries will typically know rather little about the religion and will certainly not know or understand the multiple meanings of the word in religious context.

So they call it "jihad", simply because the islamic militia's they see on TV call it that themselves. It's not the terminology of the western folks... it's the terminology of the islamic militia's, which the western viewers simply repeat.

I get it that you might not like it though... In a sense, it's kind of comparable to what Hitler did with the swastika, you know? He kind of ruined that symbol as well...

But it is what it is off course... People aren't going to stop calling it that. Even if you go and lobby for it - I'm pretty sure the terrorists are going to get more attention by media then you.

Obviously they mean some kind of holy war against humanity or something all the time.

Obviously, yes.

So obvious, that there are even militia's that use the word "jihad" in their very group name:

Category:Jihadist groups - Wikipedia

 

[firedragon]

From radical islamic militia's in the middle east (and elsewhere) who put out video's and statements calling for holy war which they call "jihad"..

Hmm. So lets say you see a video of some person shouting Jihad, what is the "Jihad Ideology"? Can you name the specific video, the specific group, and explain this "Jihad Ideology"?

Obviously, yes.

So obvious, that there are even militia's that use the word "jihad" in their very group name:

Category:Jihadist groups - Wikipedia

So now you have established non-muslims use the word "Jihad" for all militant groups "If they are Muslim". Your link shows it.

What is this "Jihad ideology" of them all? Do they all have one? Or do they have many? Or Dozens?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Hmm. So lets say you see a video of some person shouting Jihad, what is the "Jihad Ideology"? Can you name the specific video, the specific group, and explain this "Jihad Ideology"?

In an abstract, I'ld say it is refering to ideologies which actively try to further or implement their radical islamic beliefs through violent means. For details of these ideologies, you'ld have to go and see the discourse of those specific groups, as they tend to disagree about some things since they are rivals at times.

But whatever the specifics: it's some kind of radical / fundamentalist islamist ideology.


As for examples... please.

So now you have established non-muslims use the word "Jihad" for all militant groups "If they are Muslim". Your link shows it.

My link was merely a list of islamic militia's, to make that this terminology comes from those groups. THEY use those words. Some of them even have the word in question in their very name, as the list shows.

What is this "Jihad ideology" of them all?

A radical violent version of islam.

Do they all have one?

Pretty much, yes, albeit some disagreement on details which seems denominationally determined.
Sectarianism etc also plays a role of course.

This is all news to you?

Or do they have many? Or Dozens?

I don't know how many actual denominations islam has and frankly it's not really important to the point in question either.

You asked what people refer to when they speak of "jihad ideology", and I assume you mean non-muslims specifically.

I told you what it refers to. It refers to the violent radical islamic beliefs that drives the militia's that adhere to those doctrines. I also told you how it came to refer to that in the general public.

 

[firedragon]

In an abstract, I'ld say it is refering to ideologies which actively try to further or implement their radical islamic beliefs through violent means. For details of these ideologies, you'ld have to go and see the discourse of those specific groups, as they tend to disagree about some things since they are rivals at times.

But whatever the specifics: it's some kind of radical / fundamentalist islamist ideology.


As for examples... please.

Well. You are absolutely wrong even according to the western definition of this "Jihad" matter. Absolutely wrong.

Anyway, not just an example. Specific details. Like everyone else, you are also simply making general comments with your TV knowledge mate. So provide a specific detail, who, and whats the specific ideology?

A radical violent version of islam.

Did you make that up to answer this or do you have details from valid sources? Who defined this as such? Is that an official position or did you just come up with it because you heard this from some specific person? Who is this person? Is it the FBI, the CIA, an Official source, an expert or a researcher? Think and answer if you could.

Pretty much, yes, albeit some disagreement on details which seems denominationally determined.
Sectarianism etc also plays a role of course.

This is all news to you?

Are you making assumptions on the fly or do you have some good research or a good researcher to quote on your statements?

By the way, this is not news to me because I have seen many many people who are driven by the TV education they got and associations made. Try and answer these questions with objectivity with specific information, not general comments with your top of mind awareness.

I don't know how many actual denominations islam has and frankly it's not really important to the point in question either.

You asked what people refer to when they speak of "jihad ideology", and I assume you mean non-muslims specifically.

I told you what it refers to. It refers to the violent radical islamic beliefs that drives the militia's that adhere to those doctrines. I also told you how it came to refer to that in the general public.

So you are turning this into a sectarian issue. Thus, Jihad ideology is a sectarian issue now? Again, do you have any study to quote?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well. You are absolutely wrong even according to the western definition of this "Jihad" matter. Absolutely wrong.

If you say so.
I can only inform you that whenever you say "jihad" to a random non-muslim westerner, he'll think "al-qaida, ISIS, boko haram,.."

Anyway, not just an example. Specific details. Like everyone else, you are also simply making general comments with your TV knowledge mate. So provide a specific detail, who, and whats the specific ideology?

A specific example of what, exactly?

Did you make that up to answer this or do you have details from valid sources? Who defined this as such? Is that an official position or did you just come up with it because you heard this from some specific person? Who is this person? Is it the FBI, the CIA, an Official source, an expert or a researcher? Think and answer if you could.

I have it from the very fundamentalist muslims that say it themselves.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste time with you "debating" if radical islamist militia's / terrorist groups exist.
That would also be quite insulting to their many many victims.

But keep sticking your head in the sand.

Are you making assumptions on the fly or do you have some good research or a good researcher to quote on your statements?

I'm just a bit aware of what goes on around the world.

By the way, this is not news to me because I have seen many many people who are driven by the TV education they got and associations made. Try and answer these questions with objectivity with specific information, not general comments with your top of mind awareness.

Don't know what to tell you dude. You asked a question, I gave a perfectly valid answer...
You asked what "jihad ideology" refered to (in western culture, I presume), I explained it to you.

I can't help it if my answer isn't to your liking.

So you are turning this into a sectarian issue.

No. I'm saying that sectarianism plays a role in the rivalry between various radical islamist militia's.

Thus, Jihad ideology is a sectarian issue now?

No, never said that. But it seems you don't really care what I actually say.

Again, do you have any study to quote?

A "study" seems overkill for something so mega obvious to anyone (but you?), like the fact that violent radical islamist militia's and that they spread propaganda talking about things like jihad..

 

[firedragon]

If you say so.
I can only inform you that whenever you say "jihad" to a random non-muslim westerner, he'll think "al-qaida, ISIS, boko haram,.."

Of course. Not only Westerners, even easterners.

I have it from the very fundamentalist muslims that say it themselves.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste time with you "debating" if radical islamist militia's / terrorist groups exist.
That would also be quite insulting to their many many victims.

But keep sticking your head in the sand.

Sorry mate. Thats a strawman. This post has nothing to do with who exists or not.

Don't know what to tell you dude. You asked a question, I gave a perfectly valid answer...
You asked what "jihad ideology" refered to (in western culture, I presume), I explained it to you.

I can't help it if my answer isn't to your liking.

Wrong. I like your answer because it shows how people learn and how hard it is to unlearn what you learned from the unprofessional preachers.

A "study" seems overkill for something so mega obvious to anyone (but you?), like the fact that violent radical islamist militia's and that they spread propaganda talking about things like jihad..

Its just vague. So its just assumptions. Too vague and general. Liking it and objectivity are very different things.

A "study" seems overkill for something so mega obvious to anyone (but you?), like the fact that violent radical islamist militia's and that they spread propaganda talking about things like jihad..

Not really. There are many many studies. I mean actual studies. Just that you are just another victim of shallow surfing. I just needed to see if people anything at all but it seems most people dont know anything. They like to show they do.

So thanks for responding. Have a great day.

 

[Fool]

the ahmiyat see it as a spiritual war of dialogue



Jihad -- 'Holy War', or Internal Spiritual Struggle?

So, what really is jihad?

 

[firedragon]

the ahmiyat see it as a spiritual war of dialogue



Jihad -- 'Holy War', or Internal Spiritual Struggle?

So, what really is jihad?

It just means "Try". So it can be used practically for trying or working towards anything. Its just a simple word.

I am interested in hearing from those who make statements like "Jihad Ideology" to understand how far they have gone.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Miriam Webster says its a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty and may also be other things, but the first definition is holy war. That perfectly explains to me why jihadist militias use this term and also why westerners think of it as synonymous with crusade.

Definition of jihad
1 : a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty also : a personal struggle in devotion to Islam especially involving spiritual discipline
2 : a crusade for a principle or belief

Definition of JIHAD

 

[firedragon]

Miriam Webster says its a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty and may also be other things, but the first definition is holy war. That perfectly explains to me why jihadist militias use this term and also why westerners think of it as synonymous with crusade.
Definition of JIHAD

1. What is "Jihad Ideology"? According to which doctrine? (Not just the websters dictionary meaning of the word)
2. Which "Jihadist Militias" are you talking about. When and how did they use this so called "word"? Specific details.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Not sure you see my replies as friendly. You should, but at any rate I'm done in this thread. Sorry that we didn't get along this time.

I did look around a little more. I found out, tentatively, that the change in the usage of the term 'Jihad' probably began with a 19th century militia calling itself 'Mujahadeen'. This poor wikipedia link explains some of the history of the etymological drift affecting the term 'Jihad' and its connotations in English today. The article refers to 'Jihadism', but this doesn't help the term 'Jihad' at all as it functions as the root of the term. Mujahideen - Wikipedia

1. What is "Jihad Ideology"? According to which doctrine? (Not just the websters dictionary meaning of the word)

That is not in the dictionary. It is putting the word 'Jihad' together with 'Ideology' to imply a new combined meaning. I can only guess at the intended meaning of the term, but it seems obvious. Usages like this also cement in place, possibly forever, a derogatory definition of jihad, because now jihad is being treated as a root word borrowed from another language. Its not easy to change a root; but if you can convince people that it shouldn't be used that way maybe you can. If people believe it impolite to use 'Jihad' to refer to war then it might change. That's all I can imagine that might change the usage and at first only among those interested in polite speech.

2. Which "Jihadist Militias" are you talking about. When and how did they use this so called "word"? Specific details.

Those which I have heard about and which I cannot at this moment recite from memory, however TagliatelliMonster has posted a wikipedia article that lists a lot. It is titled Category:Jihadist_groups. That seems to me to fill in some information. This is just how people talk, putting 'Jihad' into various forms.

 

[firedragon]

Not sure you see my replies as friendly. You should, but at any rate I'm done in this thread. Sorry that we didn't get along this time.

I did look around a little more. I found out, tentatively, that the change in the usage of the term 'Jihad' probably began with a 19th century militia calling itself 'Mujahadeen'. This poor wikipedia link explains some of the history of the etymological drift affecting the term 'Jihad' and its connotations in English today. The article refers to 'Jihadism', but this doesn't help the term 'Jihad' at all as it functions as the root of the term. Mujahideen - Wikipedia

That is not in the dictionary. It is putting the word 'Jihad' together with 'Ideology' to imply a new combined meaning. I can only guess at the intended meaning of the term, but it seems obvious. Usages like this also cement in place, possibly forever, a derogatory definition of jihad, because now jihad is being treated as a root word borrowed from another language. Its not easy to change a root; but if you can convince people that it shouldn't be used that way maybe you can. If people believe it impolite to use 'Jihad' to refer to war then it might change. That's all I can imagine that might change the usage and at first only among those interested in polite speech.

Those which I have heard about and which I cannot at this moment recite from memory, however TagliatelliMonster has posted a wikipedia article that lists a lot. It is titled Category:Jihadist_groups. That seems to me to fill in some information. This is just how people talk, putting 'Jihad' into various forms.

Brother, there is nothing called Jihad Ideology from a Muslim point of view. No one speaks of a Jihad Ideology in any group or movement who call themselves Muslims, whoever they are. I only hear this "Jihad Ideology" from non-muslims who have only heard this idea from preachers and book sellers, not from experts or people who have done extensive research on any of these subjects.

Anyway, all the comments are welcome because it shows where you get your information from. It helps me in many ways. Cheers.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Sorry mate. Thats a strawman. This post has nothing to do with who exists or not.

What is a strawman?
Jihad factually is a word used in the islamic jargon those groups spew in their propaganda.

Wrong. I like your answer because it shows how people learn and how hard it is to unlearn what you learned from the unprofessional preachers.

This has nothing to do with preachers. The word "jihad" in non-muslim cultures today refers to the "holy war" that islamic terrorists are waging on.. well... everybody that isn't in their camp it seems.
It's just a name, a group label.

What are you on about?
Are you annoyed that it doesn't mean the same thing as what YOU mean by it in your particular islamic culture? Or what you think it means in the quran or whatever?

Well tough luck. I acknowledged in one of my first posts that this likely is the case. I also gave that example of how Hitler messed up the Swastika symbol.

Its just vague. So its just assumptions. Too vague and general. Liking it and objectivity are very different things.

I already gave you a list of groups that even had the word "jihad" in their name.
Why are you so in denial? What is it exactly that you are arguing about / for / against?

I don't get it.

Not really. There are many many studies. I mean actual studies. Just that you are just another victim of shallow surfing. I just needed to see if people anything at all but it seems most people dont know anything. They like to show they do.

So thanks for responding. Have a great day.

Know what?
You asked in this thread what people refer to when they say "jihad". That's what this thread is about.
I answered your question, about how it refers to the war that islamic terrorists are waging. And they get that terminology from the islamists' own propaganda machines.

This is the answer. You wanted to know. There it is. Why are you all acting as if that answer is "incorrect"?
I don't get it.

If you didn't want to hear the answer, then why did you ask the question?

 

[firedragon]

What is a strawman?
Jihad factually is a word used in the islamic jargon those groups spew in their propaganda.




This has nothing to do with preachers. The word "jihad" in non-muslim cultures today refers to the "holy war" that islamic terrorists are waging on.. well... everybody that isn't in their camp it seems.
It's just a name, a group label.

What are you on about?
Are you annoyed that it doesn't mean the same thing as what YOU mean by it in your particular islamic culture? Or what you think it means in the quran or whatever?

Well tough luck. I acknowledged in one of my first posts that this likely is the case. I also gave that example of how Hitler messed up the Swastika symbol.



I already gave you a list of groups that even had the word "jihad" in their name.
Why are you so in denial? What is it exactly that you are arguing about / for / against?

I don't get it.



Know what?
You asked in this thread what people refer to when they say "jihad". That's what this thread is about.
I answered your question, about how it refers to the war that islamic terrorists are waging. And they get that terminology from the islamists' own propaganda machines.

This is the answer. You wanted to know. There it is. Why are you all acting as if that answer is "incorrect"?
I don't get it.

If you didn't want to hear the answer, then why did you ask the question?

Cheers.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Brother, there is nothing called Jihad Ideology from a Muslim point of view.

Which doesn't matter.

To hindu's, the swastika also doesn't represent the mass extermination of jews either.

It's just a word that was imported into english from another languages. And the vehicle by which it was imported was radical islamist propaganda, using it in context of calling for a holy war against the infidels.

No one speaks of a Jihad Ideology in any group or movement who call themselves Muslims, whoever they are.

So?
Therefor it can't mean anything in a non-arabic language?

I only hear this "Jihad Ideology" from non-muslims who have only heard this idea from preachers and book sellers, not from experts or people who have done extensive research on any of these subjects.

Maybe that is a hint that therefor it probably won't mean what it means in the niche of islamic and arabic scholarship?

There's a difference between general layman speech and expert / scholarship jargon.
Remember when Sony came up with the first portable cassette player and branded it "walkman".
And then got furious when it turned out that ALL portable cassette players from ALL brands were also being called "walkman"?

This is just how language works. This is how the word "jihad" was introduced to the masses. So that's how the masses use it.

You can freak out about it, like those fanboys back in the day who were frantically always correcting people when they called a non-walkman a walkman, or you can just accept that this is how language works.

The non-muslim masses don't care one bit about islam. Nobody loses any sleep over worrying that one might be using an imported word in a different way then it is being used in the original language at the other side of the world...Be serious. This is no big deal.