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Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Starlight, Nov 19, 2022.

  1. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Unknown Member
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    I would fully agree with your last statement.

    When I was quite young, I had a friend who's mother told me that hell was only terrible because no one there would help each other. So, it stuck in my mind that if I ever ended up in such a place, I could make it better by trying to help others out of their troubles. One of those childhood thoughts you can't shake, I guess.

    Dark realms seem to exist in most religions, though they're not usually places of eternal punishment but places to go in between lives, perhaps pay off debts for wrongs you had committed, perhaps just rest and recooperate. They didn't last forever. Likewise with the heavenly realms; receive rewards for good deeds, and prepare for your next time back. The inferno idea seemed to come later. I'm not sure why that was viewed as an eternal thing rather than just burning off impurities for preparation to what comes next(whether earthly reincarnation or an afterlife on the spiritual realm).

    But yes, we're given the brains we're given that are built to house(or not house) the thoughts they do... what else can we do but go along with what we have found to be true?
     
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  2. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Extortion? How is giving you what you asked for extortion?
     
  3. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    If I told you that you would turn green unless you ate three robin eggs, and then after ignoring my warning it actually happened, does that mean you asked for it?
     
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  4. Alien826

    Alien826 Older than dirt

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    I prefer the protection racket simile, so I'll explain that. Extortion is really pretty much the same, but more honest in it's approach.

    The racketeer offers "protection" from himself. What you are paying for is his not setting fire to your shop, or whatever.

    God can be seen as similar, as he is actually "saving" us from himself. (And, according to Christianity, he saves us by splitting a part of himself off and killing it. If you tried to invent something this silly you would have trouble doing it.)

    He creates heaven and hell and sets up the rules. We can either pay the price and go to heaven or refuse and go to hell. He's doing it to us in either case. It's one thing to say that if we join a club we are bound by its rules, but we don't get the option to join or not to join. A fair alternative to hell would be to allow us to live our lives as we wish and suffer whatever natural consequences there are after death (I have to assume an afterlife or the whole thing is moot).
     
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  5. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    In my opinion, praying to the Christian God is a total waste of time. When I was growing up, I used to frantically pray to God, pleading with him to protect me and save me from the abuse and neglect I suffered at home and the bullying and harassment I endured in school. But despite the years of sincere prayers pleading with God to intervene, I suffered severe abuse and neglect at home for 13 1/2 years and constant bullying and harassment for 12 years in school. I had always had a sincere belief in God before I converted to Christianity at the age of 17. I was a devout Christian for 30 years before I finally repudiated my Christian faith and started to break free from the indoctrination to which I had been subjected for most of my life. I didn't start to emotionally heal from the trauma I experienced as a result of the years of abuse, neglect, and bullying I endured while growing up until after I renounced my Christian faith. Without a doubt, giving up my Christian faith and my belief in God was the best decision I have ever made for my mental and emotional health. In all honesty, it has significantly impacted and improved my life and changed how I deal with the PTSD I've had for the majority of my adult life. I feel peace in my heart, and I feel joyful and pleased with my life. I never felt these emotions while I was a Christian. I was always sad, depressed, and fearful. I also had an eating disorder, and there were times when I contemplated suicide.
     
    #85 Sgt. Pepper, Nov 20, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2022
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  6. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    That is the essence of evangelical Christianity's fear-mongering teachings. "God loves you... except if you disobey him and sin against him, then he'll send you to hell to be tortured, and you'll suffer for all eternity." But there's a catch. If you repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your savior, then God will forgive you, and you're safe. But wait, there's a loophole in this seemingly hopeful biblical promise: you could still be stripped of your salvation and be cast into hell if you don't follow God's will. Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31–46) and his blunt warning: "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21) demonstrate that even though you repented and were forgiven of your sins, you could still go to hell if you don't toe the line exactly the way God wants you to, and herein lies another contradiction in the Bible, because Romans 10:9-13 says that if someone declares with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, they will be saved. The verse claims that whoever calls on Jesus' name will be saved.

    And Ephesians 2:8–9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." However, in Matthew 7:21, Jesus stated, "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven," and his sheep and goats parable in Matthew 25:31–46 states the "sheep" were rewarded with eternal life for their good works of feeding the hungry, giving water to people who are thirsty, inviting in a stranger, clothing the needy, and visiting the sick or people in prison. However, the "goats" in this parable were lambasted by Jesus for not feeding the hungry, giving water to people who were thirsty, inviting in strangers, clothing the needy, and not visiting the sick or people in prison. Jesus cursed them and sent them to eternal damnation. The "goats" lacked the good works to be rewarded with eternal life, in spite of the fact that they were Christians who accepted Jesus as their lord and savior.
     
    #86 Sgt. Pepper, Nov 20, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2022
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  7. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Assuming I knew you were an all powerful being who created all reality.
     
  8. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    Of course you do.
     
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It makes no sense. An atheist doesn't "choose" not to believe in God, he is simply unconvinced. Thus there is no moral responsibility involved. So why would God send them to hell?
     
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  10. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Hell is a separation from god; that is what dualism is.
     
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  11. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Veteran Member
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    Hi. In the Baha’i teachings heaven and hell are not places but spiritual conditions or states such as heaven is to be close to or like God (godly) and hell far from Him. (Ungodly)As Christ said ‘let the dead bury the dead’ meaning that disbelief in God in word and deed was likened to spiritual death.

    And we see today how ungodliness has created hell on earth. By ungodliness is not meant verbal disbelief but horrible cruel acts which can be committed by anyone. Our actions define whether we are godly or ungodly not our words.
     
  12. Alien826

    Alien826 Older than dirt

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    Do you want me to respond to that? If so I need some reason for your assertion.
     
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  13. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Those who wrote the Bible weren't all powerful beings, either. Sure, they presumed to speak for god, but so do a lot of other religions.
     
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  14. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    What if some other religion other than your own turned out to be right? Does that mean you were choosing hell all along?
     
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  15. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    I don't believe that that those who don't believe in God go to hell. For one thing, what is important is that we believe in the Messengers of God that God sent, rather than concentrate on beleiving in God, ort hat there is one God. After we believe in the Messengers it does no good for us if we don't live by their teachings.

    Those who are atheists can receive the mercy of God. If an atheist has good behavior, that counts for God.

    Also the world after physical death is somewhere where souls can progress. It is also a false dichotomy in my view to say that you have either hell or heaven, and nothing in between.
     
  16. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Non-debating member when I can help myself

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    Good point.
     
  17. Messianic Israelite

    Messianic Israelite Active Member

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    Hi Starlight. Good afternoon. Harel13 put it succinctly. He said in msg 9 "each person is judged on his own". You will be alone at the judgment seat. You will be judged by your deeds and thoughts. Every thing that we say or do is being recorded. Yahweh is powerful enough to do this and if anyone is a good steward, it's Yahweh. Every single word we've spoken can be recalled, 'replayed' if you will, see Matthew 12:36.

    I can't speak for Islam, I can only speak for the Bible. The Bible teaches that sinners will be destroyed. Even Yahshua our Savior confirmed this in Matthew 13:48-49. We are either 'good' or 'bad', just like those sea creatures drawn upon the beach. What is good sea creatures? Why it's the ones that we are permitted to eat according to Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. We must also be a clean creature suitable for the 'consumption' of Yahshua in to His Body, see also Revelation 3:16.

    I know this is something you have a problem with Starlight at least from previous posts. So let's really consider whether destruction of the wicked is logical, then I'll answer the second part of your post, is Yahweh angry and jealous and thirdly, is there only one Mighty One.

    Firstly, I'll start by saying that eternally burning in hell is not Biblical and should someone want to challenge me on that I'd like to point them to 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, the specific phrase used is 'eternal punishment' not 'eternal punishing'. The difference is it's not an ongoing punishing of the wicked. The punishment is forever. It's eternal death, but the punishing ends swiftly. Yahweh has no pleasure in the death of the wicked we read in Ezekiel 33:11. So why have Chr-stians twisted the scripture to say something it doesn't say adversely reflecting on Yahweh's character? People come up with the wildest ideas of what awaits the sinner, yet we do not need the likes of Dante's inferno to drum up ideas of what awaits wicked people after death. Malachi 4:1-3 tells us the wicked will be ashes under our feet. They will be destroyed, not ever burning.

    Let's go to the next point you make, that Yahweh is angry and jealous. I want to point out straight away in the defense of Yahweh that Yahweh is a loving Being (1 John 4:8), full of love and mercy, be He also is a just Being. All His people expect Him to do justly and righteously. Abraham certainly did in Genesis 18:25. Therefore we cannot logically expect sinners to receive the same reward as the righteous. Righteousness takes work, it doesn't come easily to some people, and there must be a reward for it, just as there must be a reward (in a bad sense) for unrighteousness. If you have two children, and they both receive the same instructions, one of them obeys faithfully, the other completely disregards his parents, it would be unethical to reward both children with the same thing wouldn't it? You would discourage righteousness and encourage unrighteousness. Unlike man, Yahweh is a righteous judge. He will reward righteousness with good things.

    So let's look at what you have said. Is Yahweh a jealous El? Yes He is. I know He is from reading the Bible. He doesn't hide this from us, as a matter of fact it appears in the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:5 and other places like Exodus 34:14. Let's look at some terms. Qânâ' (קָנָא, Strong's #7065), “to be jealous; to be zealous.” This verb, derived from the noun qin’ah, occurs 34 times in the Old Testament. So jealousy is closely associated with the word zealous in the Bible. You can't really be zealous without having some jealousy in you. Jealous for Yahweh's Name, jealous for Yahweh's people, jealous for True Worship. The fact that Yahweh is a jealous El shows that Yahweh has strong emotions. Jealousy, we learn from the Bible, is one of strongest emotions (Pro 27:4). With all the knowledge Yahweh possesses, the fact that He created this incredible universe, He gave us an excellent Law, He gave us Yahshua so we could be saved from our sins, Yahweh has a right to be jealous. That, strongest emotion, that He has where He wants the best for His people, is undeniable. Jealousy in human beings is often characterized by a hateful envy, but Yahweh's jealousy appears to come from something different. In the New Testament we are admonished that jealousy and indeed wrath is something wrong, that we should put it away, in 2 Corinthians 12:20. It is in fact a product of the flesh. Why then would Paul and Yahshua our Saviour tell us to imitate Yahweh if Yahweh is jealous and angry all the time? Firstly, Yahweh is not angry all the time. Secondly, we are allowed to become angry. You may have heard of the term 'righteous indignation'. They are some things which should make us angry in life. That doesn't mean we should be angry all the time. Sin, the transgression of the Law, should anger us. When we see Yahweh's Law flagrantly being violated for example, this should provoke a response in us. We're not dead people, we're alive and we should be as passionate as Yahweh is. Yahshua our Savior became angry at times with the same righteous indignation when he cleansed the Temple, throwing out the money changers and those that sold oxen and doves, saying (I'm paraphrasing) 'do not make my Father's house an emporium'. Without anger, we probably wouldn't repent of sin.

    See 2 Corinthians 7:11 "For behold, this selfsame thing, that ye were made sorry after a holy sort, what earnest care it wrought in you, yea what clearing of yourselves, yea what indignation, yea what fear, yea what longing, yea what zeal, yea what avenging! In everything ye approved yourselves to be pure in the matter."

    Back to anger, Yahweh does get angry. Matter of fact, Yahweh is an El that has indignation every day according to Psalm 7:11. Why should Yahweh an Elohim of love become angry? The same reason He is jealous - because He cares. If He didn't care about people there would be no reason for Him to become angry would they? Yahweh isn't always angry but in a world full of sin and evil, Yahweh is bound to get angry, especially when He sees that people are going astray and suffering simply because they are turning from His Law. The average person really doesn't care what Yahweh has said in His Word. But growing up in my faith it's so easy to see why Yahweh should be provoked to anger.

    This brings me on to your last point: Is it wise to believe in one El? The myths and legends of deities arising from polytheistic religions always present them as conflicting with each other. This itself is proof enough that these mighty ones were constructed by mankind in the figment of their imaginations. The heavens show cohesion and harmony. Not disharmony, different mighty ones battling it out. This conflict between personalities, desires etc exist within single pantheons, when we mix pantheons from different cultures in a single society, we compound the problem.

    People really don't seem to understand the problem with believing in lies. With polytheism you have to remember worshipers take on the attributes of their deities. This is brought forth in Psalm 115:8. Worshipping dead idols will produce dead works in your life. Worshiping conflicting mighty ones will produce conflict in your life, I am convinced.

    It's easy in my mind to see how pure worship which worships one El and began with one human should be broken up by pagans to diminish from an all powerful mighty one to then creating (say) a mountain mighty one, or a water mighty one or a mighty one of the desert. Have you read 1 Kings 20:28. It shows that the Syrians had also turned to splitting the cosmos into multiple fractal images each with its own special character and Yahweh was simply a mighty one of the hills. When the Bible was being written, polytheism was in vogue. Yahweh the true Mighty One had been rejected and his power divided in to different forces and personalities. Polytheism undermines Yahweh's character. The Shema from Deuteronomy 6 clearly tells us that Yahweh is one.

    The problem with polytheism is the mighty ones in any polytheistic system lack the power to do everything. By definition , in a world that believes many mighty ones exist the power among them is shared. Not one of these alleged mighty ones is able to do everything. In the system of polytheism, there is no mighty one that can ultimately save. Do you really want polytheism? To be running between different so called mighty ones, for help with different problems and some of those mighty ones have overlapping qualities so sometimes asking multiple deities for help with the same problem. Oh, and don't forget that one mighty one that might not be powerful enough might be conquered by another! The problem with many mighty ones is that one cannot be even certain that the mighty ones are even powerful enough to grant their desires. Consequently, polytheism is not logical, and those who take it up can't expect any security in their beliefs.
     
    #97 Messianic Israelite, Nov 22, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Jesus believed in God and at his death righteous Jesus went to hell according to Acts of the Apostles 2:27
    I believe Jesus is the Messenger (Messiah) that God sent to earth for us to live by his teachings.
    Since one's 'death' is the total asking price tag that sin pays, then "yes" an atheist can receive in God's mercy because there will be a resurrection for both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15; Romans 6:23,7
    A resurrection from death's sleep. Jesus and the OT teach 'sleep' in death - John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
    So, unlike the myth-hell teaching (fire) the 'Bible's hell' is simply mankind's temporary stone cold grave for the sleeping dead until resurrection day. ( Jesus coming 'thousand-year day' of governing over Earth )
    When Adam died a physical death I find ALL of Adam died because Adam became a dead soul at death.
    Ezekiel 18:4,20 says the soul that sins dies. Adam sinned and Adam died.
    Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life. Genesis 3:19
    Thus, the ' something in between ' heaven and biblical hell/grave is a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection being restored back to live life on Earth when Jesus comes and brings an end to 'enemy death' on Earth.
    - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
     
  19. rational experiences

    rational experiences Veteran Member

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    History...his own story.

    Man men on gods earth.

    Mutual two humans after earths ice age saviour...in earths nature garden.

    No Satanism.. sun theoried by men.

    Star hits human man brain changes.

    Civilisation emerges by design of men not God. Men build pyramid temple sciences owning nor using any belief of God...all Satanism sun.

    By his man will. Is the part of the story a book doesn't speak. Humans first natural life.

    After the fact man's life was nearly destroyed by sun theism so spoke about gods will rights and human legal status of no science.

    First confession Egyptian culture by its human victims.

    Muslim..Islam...Jewish. old.

    Then Rome introduces I'll cool ground fall crop circle before it hits. Stonehenge. Now it shouldn't blow up.

    It did. As you knew you used cloud mass only above to cool transmitters. Why the temple floor plan looks like a transistor radios plan.

    America today. New artificial dust stopping chemistry. Fake AI plastics....alien causes.

    Angel devil.man God.... all angels. Ignored advices are his own. Image caused in science.

    Said Rome is themed the mother abomination. They'll destroy all life on earth.

    As healed evolved returned atmosphere mass was then Romes science.

    Removed accrued evolution. Attack not as bad as old as they used Stonehenge. Applied casement pump cooling too. Did not work. No man is earth God.

    So America ignores the Rome teaching devil is man's angel image only.

    They changed transmitters theirselves.

    Alien appears. Came from out of space says the exact taught mind.

    Why do modern scientists blame the old?

    Heavens remasses first. Old memories of man's science re emerges.

    Then the Satan star came. Not Christ.

    Nuclear old memories then introduced. Once again evolution as amount of gas mass above changes the nuclear identity. Proven men did not rebuild the old temple science.

    Machine model changed.

    Today science says the place my dust in machine gains AI I'll now invent from. Yet it's out in space...he knew in America he changed teachings occult.

    So he preaches the icons of occult science have changed. We are correct.

    Lied. He isn't correct.

    As when man physical changes chemistry himself man ually a machine is not doing what he does as man. So no machine caused a bio cell in holy water to appear.

    Men's thesis I'll remove it out of heavens myself is only by machine applications. A confession his mind said I'll destroy biology. Only supporting the alien.

    We own living with and supported by living single cell in heavens as human law only.

    It's a Direct lie.

    In science a human only ends life as carbon. Combusted human. Position in machine a dropped nuclear cold mass held.

    Carbon one is its owned one body carbon.

    The law one was taught only by men who agreed human life owned it's natural human legal precedence. As a human. Body human one is human only.

    The testimony was only proof men of human temple science destroyed life.

    To collide as God. Law is planet earth hit by a Suns star carbon mass. As dust and gas fuel actually brings it to earth.

    Left over fuel isn't any humans science theory. Warned. Blame is part of sciences con.

    Why old said my human warnings about science was exact. You own no other excuse.

    A human in life cell is highest healthy ova ovah ovary cell. Humans rights to return to Jerusalem's beginnings no science beginnings holy babies born. No temple of science only temple to praise God and mourn the dead.

    Sacrificed human baby life proof heavenly father's image has not yet returned healed.
     
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