What if ... ?

[Terry Sampson]

I've had a question on my mind for at least a couple of weeks and have been slow to pose it here for several trivial reasons. And then I read an article today that moved me to go ahead and ask it.

The question is a "What if ...?" question.

The article that moved me to finally post it is: Council Post: The Genius Of Asking 'What If?' Questions, specifically this part:

• The Power Of A “What If?”
  • With a normal question, your brain quickly and transparently uses previous information, data or situational experiences to concoct an acceptable answer.
    With a “what if?” question, your brain usually holds no previous precedent, paradigm or example to rely upon for an acceptable answer, so the answer heads to a different area of the brain.

At my age, anything that activates any part of my brain is "brain food". From what I've seen here in RF, I'm not the only one who could use some brain food. So here goes; let's see what happens; surprise me.

My "what if ... ?" question:

• What if Christianity didn't exist, never existed, and never will exist? How would the world be different?
  • Mind you: I'm not asking "what if Christianity isn't true or what if Jesus never existed?" Whether there ever was a Jew named Yehoshua, or whatever his name was, is irrelevant; and so is Christianity's alleged "truth value".
    
  • What would be left without Christianity's Jesus AND without Christianity?

Just to get the ball rolling, I'm going to assume that all the "Eastern" religions/philosophies, i.e. Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, etc., would still exist. I'm also going to assume--given my biases--that Judaism might still exist in some form, but that no other known Abrahamic faith community would.

Whaddya think?

 

[Rival]

Judaism would exist because it came before Christianity. It would hopefully have a Temple and be in a better state. Maybe we could have more Noachides even. I think Pagan religions would dominate in the way they always did, but with more atheism.

 

[Sunstone]

Terry, you might enjoy reading Daniel Kahneman's book, "Thinking Fast and Slow". He has had quite an impact on how people think about thinking, how they get more out of thinking, how they keep their minds young, etc. etc.

 

[Nakosis]

Whaddya think?

I've considered the question before but feel the actual result to be unpredictable. The world could be so different that the people here today, us, wouldn't exist.

A lot of the motivation for exploration was religious based like Manifest Destiny. While I know America is not a Christian nation a lot of our ideas/ethics are.

Without Christianity, it would be a totally unrecognizable alien world. Small changes to our history can have dramatic effects. Something as large and interwoven as Christianity has been... Anything from utopia to the complete annihilation of the human race is a possibility.

We could predict a million possible outcomes of what could have happened and likely none of them would be right.

 

[Terry Sampson]

1. Judaism would exist because it came before Christianity.
2. It would hopefully have a Temple and be in a better state.
3. Maybe we could have more Noachides even.
4. I think Pagan religions would dominate in the way they always did, but with more atheism.

Biased as I am toward believing there's a God, I agree with your first point. However, if I were an atheist, I suspect Judaism would move to the top of the list of least desirable faith communities in the world.

I'm not so optimistic about the existence of a Temple, barring Divine intervention. After all, the Romans destroyed the Second Temple and even with Christian encouragement and support in the 18th and 19th century, the Third Temple hasn't been built and I have "an atheist's" doubts that the Balfour Declaration and the Zionists would have had all that much support in the 20th century.

I've never seen Noachide demographics, so I'm slow to imagine that Noachidism would have ever gotten off the ground. Who becomes a Noachide? Atheists? Agnostics? Pagans? Slacker Jews? I don't know.

More atheism, indubitably, IMO. As many Pagans, if not more? Maybe, maybe not?

 

[Terry Sampson]

but feel the actual result to be unpredictable.

What the heck, walk on the "wild side" today.

The world could be so different that the people here today, us, wouldn't exist.

Ahh, there ya go. I'd be willing to bet that some foreigners would have "discovered" the Americas,and might, even, have managed to survive the Native populations, but it seems to me that the U.S. is a unique animal, having been inspired at points by Christians.

 

[Rival]

Biased as I am toward believing there's a God, I agree with your first point. However, if I were an atheist, I suspect Judaism would move the top of the list of least desirable faith communities in the world.

I'm not so optimistic about the existence of a Temple, barring Divine intervention. After all, the Roman's destroyed the Second Temple and even with Christian encouragement and support in the 18th and 19th century, the Third Temple hasn't been built and I have "an atheist's" doubts that the Balfour Declaration and the Zionists would have had all that much support in the 20th century.

I've never seen Noachide demographics, so I'm slow to imagine that Noachidism would have ever gotten off the ground. Who becomes a Noachide? Atheists? Agnostics? Pagans? Slacker Jews? I don't know.

More atheism, indubitably, IMO. As many Pagans, if not more? Maybe, maybe not?

The Temple isn't built because there's a Mosque there. There'd be no Mosque because there'd be no Islam. We could speculate the Roman Empire falling, Jews returning to Israel and rebuilding their Temple. Judaism has always been a minority religion so that's not a bother. There were also lots of G-dfearers and would be Noachides who became Christians, but if Christianity never happened they'd stay Noachides, possibly move to the now free Israel and settle there.

 

[Polymath257]

If Christianity never existed, then probably one of the other Roman religions (like Mithraism or Sol Invictus) would have taken its place as the official Roman religion. How that would have played out in the final days of the Empire is anyone's guess. What religion would the Gauls have adopted? Would we see more Druidism in Europe?

Another aspect is that the church/state divide arguably originated because of the Roman/German split after the fall of the Empire. Would that have been preserved?

And, the rise of science later on is partly attributable to the attitudes towards 'natural law' during the middle ages and the attempts to reconcile Christian doctrine and Greek philosophy. Would that debate have gone a different way, perhaps making so that the scientific revolution never happened?

On the other hand, would the European wars of religion have happened? How would that have played out in terms of our modern inclination to freedom of religion? The Crusades probably would not have happened, so perhaps some of the strife in the middle east today would be lessened.

As you pointed out, Islam would not have had the model of Christianity. But neither would they have had the Christian translators of Greek and Roman literature into Arabic. That means that Europe might not have regained the ancient literature, eliminating the Renaissance.

All sorts of possibilities. Bad and good.

 

[Terry Sampson]

The Temple isn't built because there's a Mosque there. There'd be no Mosque because there'd be no Islam.

I agree. But ... should we assume that the non-Muslims of Palestine would just roll over and welcome Jews onto "their" turf and allow, much less encourage, a Temple in their yard?

There were also lots of G-dfearers

Outside of Israel?

Judaism has always been a minority religion so that's not a bother.

Consider the Sami of Finland. Now, that's a minority. Roughly 10,500 or so souls. Or Amazonian tribal communities that may yet disappear without protection.

 

[Rival]

I agree. But ... should we assume that the non-Muslims of Palestine would just roll over and welcome Jews onto "their" turf and allow, much less encourage, a Temple in their yard?

Israel was a Jewish country inhabited primarily by Hebrews and Samaritans by this point. Even if they had a lot of foreigners, given that this is a 'What if' I'm just going ahead and making the assumption that, given they had two Temples previously, they could at least at some point build a third.

Outside of Israel?

Yes. They were big in Greece and Rome; they were a target audience for Paul.

Consider the Sami of Finland. Now, that's a minority. Roughly 10,500 or so souls. Or Amazonian tribal communities that may yet disappear without protection.

But we're talking about a nation, a Jewish nation. They've survived this far so I can reasonably assume they would survive in this reality, especially when there are no Christians persecuting them.

 

[Terry Sampson]

given they had two Temples previously, they could at least at some point build a third.

My impression is that a Temple built outside of Israel is a Jewish non-starter notion. So, while I can easily imagine a number of Jews in a Christian-less world, and can even imagine that they would still retain the hope and desire to see a third Temple built, I have a hard time imagining a sufficient number who might actually undertake trying to get a third Temple built in a hypothetical Pagan/Atheist/Agnostic Palestine, barring Divine intervention, of course.

[Noachides] were big in Greece and Rome; they were a target audience for Paul.

"Big" strikes me as optimistic. But in any case, I have a hard time imagining that the "God-fearers" became God-fearers by some kind of spiritual osmosis. In other words, I suspect, there was a Jew there somewhere, proselytizing. I'm not saying that's a bad thing; I'm just trying to imagine what what Jewish missionary efforts looked like.

But we're talking about a nation, a Jewish nation. They've survived this far so I can reasonably assume they would survive in this reality, especially when there are no Christians persecuting them.

I realize that this may come as a novel or uncomfortable thought to a lot of people, but a belief "that Jews deserve persecution due to their unjustified murder of Jesus" is not actually an essential precondition to motivating persecution of Jews. And I, for one, suspect that persecuting a Jew would be just as common, if not more so, in a non-Christian world as it is in a world with Christians in it.

 

[Rival]

My impression is that a Temple built outside of Israel is a Jewish non-starter notion. So, while I can easily imagine a number of Jews in a Christian-less world, and can even imagine that they would still retain the hope and desire to see a third Temple built, I have a hard time imagining a sufficient number who might actually undertake trying to get a third Temple built in a hypothetical Pagan/Atheist/Agnostic Palestine, barring Divine intervention, of course.

I'm confused. The Temple would be built in Israel. There is a certain place it has to be. Orthodox Jews pray for the rebuilding of the Temple every day. Israel would be a Jewish country as in the previous two times they had a Temple. I'm not sure where all these Pagans are coming from in your view.

"Big" strikes me as optimistic. But in any case, I have a hard time imagining the "God-fearers" became God-fearers by some kind of spiritual osmosis. In other words, I suspect, there was Jew there somewhere, proselytizing. I'm not saying that's a bad thing; I'm just trying to imagine what what Jewish missionary efforts looked like.

Hellenic and Roman people had an interest in Judaism as it was viewed as an old and therefore legitimate religion. There may have been some preaching going on, but as now, it was mostly just interest.

As Jews emigrated and settled in the Roman provinces of the Empire, Judaism became an appealing religion to a large number of Pagans, for many reasons;[6][7][13] God-fearers and proselytes that underwent full conversion were Greeks or Romans, and came from all social classes: they were mostly women[12] and freedmen[12] (liberti), but there were also artisans, soldiers and few people of high status, like patricians and senators.[12] Despite their allegiance to Judaism, the God-fearers were exempted from paying the "Jewish tax" (fiscus Judaicus).[8]

God-fearer - Wikipedia

I realize that this may come as a novel or uncomfortable thought to a lot of people, but a belief "that Jews deserve persecution due to their unjustified murder of Jesus" is not actually an essential precondition to motivating persecuting Jews. And I, for one, suspect that persecuting a Jew would be just as common, if not more so, in a non-Christian world as it is in a world with Christians in it.

Jews would have been persecuted but this was often by people for not worshipping their gods during the days Israel was under a foreign empire. There were times when Israel wasn't, and as this is a 'What if' I can imagine the Roman Empire collapsing due to economic losses sustained during war as it did, Jews returning to Israel and rebuilding it, Temple and all.

 

[Terry Sampson]

1. I'm confused.
2. The Temple would be built in Israel.
3. There is a certain place it has to be.
4. Orthodox Jews pray for the rebuilding of the Temple every day.
5. Israel would be a Jewish country as in the previous two times they had a Temple.
6. I'm not sure where all these Pagans are coming from in your view.

#1. Sorry.
#2. Barring Divine intervention, IMO, in your dreams.
#3. Right. And that eliminates the possibility that Jews not living in Israel will be planning on building one anywhere else in the world.
#4. Understood. And among the 7.5+ billion people in the world today, a noticeable number of folks would say, upon hearing that fact, "I give a ****." And, if I'm not wrong, some of them would be Jews.
#5. That seems optimistic to me.

• Demographic history of Palestine (region) - Wikipedia
  • Three events caused the Jewish population dominance to change after AD 70 (in the Late Roman period).
    • The first was the rise of Christianity.
      
    • The second involved the Jewish Diasporas resulting from a series of Jewish rebellions against the Roman occupation, starting in AD 66 which resulted in the destruction of the Second Temple and of Jerusalem in AD 70 to the subsequent expulsion of the Jews from Jerusalem, and followed by the rebellion against Hadrian in AD 132 – the Bar Kokhba revolt.
    • The third event was the 'ascension' of Constantine the Great in 312 and Christianity becoming the official state religion of Rome in 391. Already by the mid-3rd century the Jewish majority had been reported to have been lost, while others conclude that a Jewish majority lasted much longer.

And from: Demographic history of Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

#6. So, where did all the Pagans come from? From all the Christians who weren't Christians because I eliminated Christianity from the equation, and from all the Muslims who weren't Muslims because I don't think that they should be in the equation either.

Hellenic and Roman people had an interest in Judaism as it was viewed as an old and therefore legitimate religion. There may have been some preaching going on, but as now, it was mostly just interest.

I've been interested in Judaism and I don't doubt that there were and are a lot of non-Jews who have been interested in Judaism, but being interested and being interested enough to become a Noachide are two different animals. Especially, I would think, since "being interested in Judaism" doesn't count as a mitzvoth, does it?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I'm also going to assume--given my biases--that Judaism might still exist in some form, but that no other known Abrahamic faith community would.

Good question. I do not think it would have made an iota of difference and the world would have been just as it is now. Some other monotheistic religion would have been there if not Christianity*, as the coming of Islam indicates later. Monotheistic religions cannot stop spawning new religions, because no proof of being a prophet / son / messenger / manifestation / mahdi is required, just an assertion or belief of few people is necessary.

* That does not mean that monotheist religions would have been as strong as they are today. A stronger Pagan world would have existed.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I do not think it would have made an iota of difference and the world would have been just as it is now. Some other monotheistic religion would have been there if not Christianity*, as the coming of Islam indicates later

Ha! "Not an iota of difference and the world would have been just as it is now"?

Do you mean that you think the Baha'i and the Moslems would still be around (which I think is highly unlikely) or that you think there would still be some other monotheist loonies around for you to complain about (which I think is highly probable)?

If the latter, can we conclude that it was your fate in this lifetime to complain about somebody?

 

[Harel13]

And that eliminates the possibility that Jews not living in Israel will be planning on building one anywhere else in the world.

Although, that did happen once.
Elephantine papyri - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. or that you think there would still be some other monotheist loonies around for you to complain about (which I think is highly probable)?
If the latter, can we conclude that it was your fate in this lifetime to complain about somebody?

Call them loonies, call them charlatans or whatever, just check Wikipedia for claims of being Allah / God / Prophet / Son of God / Nephew of Allah / Mahdi / Manifestation / Jesus in Wikipedia. Wikipedia reports that there were 1200 people in jail who claimed to be Mahdis before the Iranian revolution. There were/are just as many in the West, Africa, Korea, Japan. some being the most dangerous cults of the world. Claims are the base of monotheistic world and as regular as floods in India.

 

[Rival]

#2. Barring Divine intervention, IMO, in your dreams.

Why? They built the first two. I'm not sure what the obstacle would be to a third. It was the Pagans themselves - the Persians - who gave the returning Jews the go-ahead to build the Second Temple.

#3. Right. And that eliminates the possibility that Jews not living in Israel will be planning on building one anywhere else in the world.

Of course? So they would move back to Israel, like we see Jews doing now, and build one - just like they did when they returned from exile the first time.

#4. Understood. And among the 7.5+ billion people in the world today, a noticeable number of folks would say, upon hearing that fact, "I give a ****." And, if I'm not wrong, some of them would be Jews.

A minority would be Jews.

#5. That seems optimistic to me.

This is a 'What if' though.

#6. So, where did all the Pagans come from? From all the Christians who weren't Christians because I eliminated Christianity from the equation, and from all the Muslims who weren't Muslims because I don't think that they should be in the equation either.

There were Pagans living in Israel the last two times they took it and built a Temple. It was no big deal.

I've been interested in Judaism and I don't doubt that there were and are a lot of non-Jews who have been interested in Judaism, but being interested and being interested enough to become a Noachide are two different animals. Especially, I would think, since "being interested in Judaism" doesn't count as a mitzvoth, does it?

We're talking about people who were hanging around at the back of synagogues and conversing with Jewish teachers. We know that there were many of these people because Paul ensnared them into Christianity because they were easy targets. Many of them were Noachides because converting to Judaism was not easy and for blokes it meant being cut. Then Paul came along and said 'Hey you can have Judaism without the stuff that makes it Jewish' and people jumped on.

Miztvoth is a plural. Mitzvah is the word you seek

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Biased as I am toward believing there's a God, I agree with your first point. However, if I were an atheist, I suspect Judaism would move to the top of the list of least desirable faith communities in the world.

This would have no bearing on Torath Moshe/Judaism since there is no concept in it that the world must become Jewish or even that it should be desirable to the world. I.e. if the Jews can survive then so does Judaism. That survival, from a human standpoint, will only be a reality of Jews throughout history if Jews can find ways to survive.

From a non-human standpoint it would depend on whether or not the Creator of all things gave the Torah at Mount Sinai to the Jewish people and whether or not the Creator put in place protections to guarentee that Jews in any point in history could keep the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Judaism would exist because it came before Christianity

Biased as I am toward believing there's a God, I agree with your first point. However, if I were an atheist, I suspect Judaism would move to the top of the list of least desirable faith communities in the world.

1. This would have no bearing on Torath Moshe/Judaism since there is no concept in it that the world must become Jewish or even that it should be desirable to the world. I.e. if the Jews can survive then so does Judaism. That survival, from a human standpoint, will only be a reality of Jews throughout history if Jews can find ways to survive.
2. From a non-human standpoint it would depend on whether or not the Creator of all things gave the Torah at Mount Sinai to the Jewish people and whether or not the Creator put in place protections to guarentee that Jews in any point in history could keep the Torah as it was given at Mount Sinai.

#1. In 1936, Dale Carnegie published his book, "How To Win Friends and Influence People." My guess is that that book is not on any traditional Jew's reading list. IMO, that's not a good thing or a bad thing, it's just a high probability.
So, when I wrote "if I were an atheist, I suspect Judaism would move to the top of the list of least desirable faith communities in the world", I wrote that fairly confident that what the world thinks of "Torath Moshe/Judaism" is not among its priorities.
Your point, that the purpose of Judaism is not to persuade, cajole, or force the world to become Jewish, is well-taken: I firmly agree with and affirm it. From a human standpoint, I also agree with and affirm your points: that Judaism's survival is contingent on the survival of Jews, and that, from a human standpoint, survival of the Jews is necessary to ensure the survival of Judaism.
#2. From a non-human standpoint--which I personally believe exists--what the non-Jewish world thinks of Judaism and the Jews who live it is in the Father's hands.

One might well wonder, then, if I have a rudimentary understanding of "the purpose of Jews and Judaism" which I think I do and if I believe that the survival of Jews and Judaism is in our Father's hands, why would I bother "to see things from an atheist's point of view".

If anyone happens to wonder about that, I'd like to direct their attention to the screen, up above the title of this thread.

I was posing my question to "Non-theists" because one of the things I wanted to see was who among RF's non-theists would respond and how. I have now seen what I was interested in seeing. That a Noahide and you also responded, in a Non-theist thread, does not trouble me. I'm good with that.