What If You're Wrong

[Skywalker]

People who feel the need for a religious belief system
will often tell of how they survey the various options,
& embrace that which calls to them.

What's an example of this in correlation to believing in Jesus Christ? Before I believed in Jesus strongly I believed in being an agnostic and in mystical things. I didn't choose to believe in Jesus because I looked at a list of beliefs and felt it was the easiest. I believed in Jesus because nothing else made sense and I felt the truth of the gospel calling me.

 

[Skywalker]

I did specify "silence" when replying to you in that particular case. I even specified that Jesus and Moses also use the Silence technique

Jesus and Moses didn't do anything similar to Indian religious practices.

 

[Revoltingest]

What's an example of this in correlation to believing in Jesus Christ? Before I believed in Jesus strongly I believed in being an agnostic and in mystical things. I didn't choose to believe in Jesus because I looked at a list of beliefs and felt it was the easiest. I believed in Jesus because nothing else made sense and I felt the truth of the gospel calling me.

I didn't say it applied to everyone, hence the "often" (regarding RF).
Moreover, I didn't know your situation.

 

[stvdv]

Jesus and Moses didn't do anything similar to Indian religious practices.

Your reply gives me the feeling that you are against Indian practices, is that the case?

They did practise "silence" according to the Bible, which is also an Indian religious practice

 

[Skywalker]

Your reply gives me the feeling that you are against Indian practices, is that the case?

They did practise "silence" according to the Bible, which is also an Indian religious practice

Moses being alone in the desert and Jesus fasting for forty days in the desert isn't the indian religious practice of silence. That's like saying that mediating on God's word is meditation.

 

[stvdv]

Moses being alone in the desert and Jesus fasting for forty days in the desert isn't the indian religious practice of silence. That's like saying that mediating on God's word is meditation.

Why you did not answer my below question?

Your reply gives me the feeling that you are against Indian practices, is that the case?

 

[Skywalker]

Why you did not answer my below question?

I don't agree with Hinduism because it teaches religious rituals.

 

[stvdv]

I don't agree with Hinduism because it teaches religious rituals.

Okay that is clear

So, my initial response was quite accurate.
Better not to engage in a conversation with you, because you judge Hinduism, and because of that, you only end up in criticizing whatever I say

 

[Skywalker]

Okay that is clear

So, my initial response was quite accurate.
Better not to engage in a conversation with you, because you judge Hinduism, and because of that, you only end up in criticizing whatever I say

I'm not judging what you believe in I was answering your question. I don't criticize what you say I respect that our beliefs are different.

 

[McBell]

You mentioned people have things to gain by believing lies about God existing so I asked you what do I have to gain by my belief in God? How is this a diversion?

a complete diversion from the tangent you wish to avoid....

 

[Skywalker]

a complete diversion from the tangent you wish to avoid....

What do you think I wish to avoid and how is that a tangent?

 

[thomas t]

if you say you have evidence for a loving creator, how would you counter my claim that there is evidence of a hating creator instead?

Ciao

- viole

That's very thoughtful.
But look, the only claim I couter is 1/ "there is no evidence for a loving Creator!"
I'm not interested in countering 2/ "there is evidence for a hating creator". It's partially because you did that yourself in #206 . It was a great argument authored by you indeed... and since I like to pause my brain, I won't think that line of thought through, here.

 

[thomas t]

I had to google "universalism" (see spoiler) to know what is meant with it.
The few short quotes I read, I do indeed like. They come quite close to what I believe


I believe that all humans who receive HIM (God), and who believe in His Name (God's Name), God bestows His Blessings upon them





The condemning part is not my favorite way to talk about a God who loves unconditionally, neither do I fancy exclusiveness

Hence, I was happy to see the preceding verse, clarifying 3:18




I had to Google Universalism to understand what you mean with it:

Spoiler: Universalism

Universalism is the philosophical and theological concept that some ideas have universal application or applicability. A belief in one fundamental truth is another important tenet in Universalism.

Christian universalism is a school of Christian theology focused around the doctrine of universal reconciliation – the view that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God.

The Unitarian belief that reason, and not creed, defines the search for truth, and the Universalist belief that God embraces all people equally has led to the currentUnitarian Universalist belief that truth and spiritual meaning can be found in all faiths.

Unitarianism rejects the mainstream Christian doctrine of the Trinity, or three Persons in one God, made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They typicallybelieve that God is one being - God the Father, or Mother. Jesus was simply a man, not the incarnate deity

The American Universalist preacher Hosea Ballou told his followers that heavenand hell are not found in any kind of afterlife, but simply in the life we create on this earth. He also rejected the idea that Jesus's death on the cross saved us — he taught that what saved us was Jesus's embodiment of love and justice.

Omnism is the recognition and respect of all religions or lack thereof; those who hold this belief are called omnists (or Omnists). The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) quotes as the term's earliest usage by English poet Philip J. Bailey: in 1839 "I am an Omnist, and believe in all religions".

Thank you for your honest answer.
I hate universalism.
It teaches everyone goes to heaven regardless of how they might behave once they are there.
Ocean polluters? - get restored and a place in heaven.
Child abusers? restored.
Nazis? restored.
Everyone gets restored and a ticket to heaven, according to them, they say they will have served a limited punishment somewhere after death. And later they get the restauration, according to them. Once the polluters/abusers/ Nazis are nicely restored... they potentially go on polluting the heavenly ocean, raping people again turning heaven into a hell for the ones who already were their victims on earth and much more.
This is universalist teaching from my perspective.

From my experience, universalists often sweep these issues aside.
As can be seen here - (it's a typical exchange between universalist and myself, both of us repeated what was said on another message board already in quite the same exchange): The Restitution Of All Things
My "discussion" partner ended up posting 20 posts in a row without receiving but one answer.

This may also count as a reply to this argument here...

[..] But an infinite punishment for a limited "crime" is always unjust. The God of the Bible appears to be extremely unjust and therefore evil.

 

[PureX]

What do you mean by let God be God and being confused and ignorant?

I define God as the great mystery source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is. I don't need to solve that mystery, or to pretend that I have.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Here is a popular video featuring Richard Dawkins which has almost 60 000 likes:

I know, many atheists here don't agree with Richard Dawkins.

Anyway, since thousands of Youtube likes speak a clear language, I thought I could make it a thread.

Whan asked what if he is wrong with the Christian God, he replied we could all be wrong about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, for instance. Or about the great Juju at the bottom of the sea.

In my opinion, that didn't answer the question.

If we are wrong about the creator if there is one... it's like being wrong about the host of where we are invited. It does matter.

Please note there was a quite similar thread recently: why is it important to "Believe"..?, it was focused more on salvation, if I understood it right.

I think it's a perfectly valid answer to the question.

The thing is, the very question being asked, implies the christian god is somehow "special". As if one should be particularly worried about being wrong about that god, but not the other 2999 gods claimed by man kind (it's probably more, but I'm arbitrarily saying 3000 claimed gods).

And the thing is: there is nothing objectively special about that god-claim. So there really is no reason to ponder this question about that particular god as opposed to all the others.

So indeed.... what if YOU are wrong about the great JuJu at the bottom of the sea?
Likely, you don't lose a second sleep worrying over that question... so why on earth would we worry about being wrong about the christian god?


So really, the question is hypocritical.

Come back and ask that question the day you actually worry about being wrong about the other 2999 gods that you don't believe in.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yep. My thoughts after that "answer". (But he made it funny.)

He could have mentioned Pascals Wager (and why it's fallacious) to at least address the philosophical background. (But I guess he was out of time and had to fit his answer into 2 minutes.)

I think he actually did answer with hinting to pascal's wager. He didn't label it, but it's the explanation in a nutshell.

The problem with that wager is that if you "bet" on one particular god existing, then you could still be wrong about the other 2999.

 

[Heyo]

I think he actually did answer with hinting to pascal's wager. He didn't label it, but it's the explanation in a nutshell.

The problem with that wager is that if you "bet" on one particular god existing, then you could still be wrong about the other 2999.

That's true but he didn't say it that way. He immediately started with a tu quoque. "What if I'm wrong? What if you're wrong?"
He didn't answer the question, he answered a different question - and he didn't make it clear enough why he did so.
Note that I'm not saying that he is wrong - I'm saying that he didn't present his argument in the best way.

 

[stvdv]

Thank you for your honest answer.
I hate universalism.
It teaches everyone goes to heaven regardless of how they might behave once they are there.
Ocean polluters? - get restored and a place in heaven.
Child abusers? restored.
Nazis? restored.

Thanks for the reply, good to know. I did not say I liked Universalism in its totallity. The few quotes I read had some interesting points. I did not research in depth. So thank you for the update. I do have a bit more nuanced idea how things work than what you describe about Universalism.

My view on these "bad" people:

I believe in a God who acts according to Dharma, and with it comes the term Karma.
The ones you describe will finally make it to Heaven, but ONLY after they got rid of their bad habits (so they might need a few extra (thousands of) births). And child abusers might get a few lives in which they are abused (seems fair to me, not nice of course). Ocean polluters might get some serious illnesses due to pollution. Creation is very creative. Nazis might for example be reborn in North Korea as a slave of Kim.

But bottom line, IMO nobody escapes his self created karma.

I had a few personal experiences that make me even more convinced that God is fair.

Spoiler: First experience

1) I never got angry with people, I always let them get away with it. But a few years ago, I decided "enough is enough". So, when someone pushed me and said some "not so nice things", I pushed back and gave some "not so nice replies" in return. My words were quite nice, but when I thought about it, I thought something like "Jesus might have handled it a bit better probably, and I wonder when this karma gets back to me, I hope it happens soon, and hopefully it does not result in a next birth"

Ca. 1 hour later I walked in the middle of a huge field. No people for 1 km to see. Suddenly a little boy ran up to me, and started yelling and abusing me verbally. After like 20 seconds he walked away. I got the lesson immediately, and thanked God for clearing my self created karma so quick.

Spoiler: Second experience

2) My father has no respect for me, and belittles me frequently. 1 day I thought "now I tell him the truth", and I allowed all the suppressed anger (he created in me) to come out. And I said quite a few intense things to him. He got very angry, and became even physical and hit me "knock out".

I got a great blessing of God immediately, because a physical incurable problem I had for many month, got cured instantly. But I did create karma, using verbally "not so nice words", though I only spoke the truth. But luckily God returned my created karma quite soon. One day I was walking in a very deserted place and suddenly a car stopped and 2 man came out, and started threatening me, and told me they would kill me and other threatening stuff. Clearly I saw this was my self created karma, by the verbal harsh words I said to my father. A few phrases were quite similar as the ones I used to my father.

Since that experience I decided to never speak mean words again. From then onward I decided to speak friendly words. Of course I can't always oblige, but at least I can speak obligingly. Now, if someone belittles me, I just tell them immediately "I never speak to you again, get out, and never come back" or something like that. Much better to speak out immeditately, because then I don't have anger towards them.

And since that decision, I never got such karmic experiences again. Now I only meet nice people (and the few disrespectful people I do meet, I kick out of my life as soon as possible; though I am still too good, and give most of them a few chances. But I also see, that, if a person does not chance the first time, he usually will never change; 'bad habits die hard' seems very true). Interesting lessons these are. I learn a lot about myself.

At least I got my self created karma almost instantly back, and I believe that the people you described, will not escape their karma either.

 

[stvdv]

Everyone gets restored and a ticket to heaven, according to them, they say they will have served a limited punishment somewhere after death.

This line might be true in my view IF "limited punishment somewhere after death" means a few (thousand) births to correct their bad behavior.

So, I am intrigued what they exactly claim. What you described here, seems quite fair to me (with some extra terrible births to unlearn bad habits). I would not be surprised that the person who started Universalism got some visions from God, explaining things. But I also know that interpreting visions is an art which is not easy. And then people can make mistakes writing down what they heard or saw. It's always difficult to filter out, what God really said, and what people made of it.

Note: "what God really said" ... what they got in meditation, vision etc. (like in Divine revelations)

 

[thomas t]

Ocean polluters might get some serious illnesses due to pollution.

maybe. This in itself doesn't prevent them from keeping polluting the earth, though.
In my opinion, there is absolutely nothing to back the hypothesis up that ocean polluters might get the hint when they die of pollution-related illnesses.
If you disagree: where are the thousands of accounts of former polluters who, in their final stages of cancer, say that it was wrong to treat the environment like that?
Educate me if you know of any.

Concerning your experience #2, I personally don't believe in "don't ever say harsh words."-doctrines.
Human rights activists, for instance, speak a very clear language about Dow not cleaning up Bhopal, for instance. Is that wrong? no, it's not. (German companies are acting the same, I guess). Dow doesn't get the instantly created Karma back, it seems.