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What if the Ottomans had agreed on cheaper pepper?

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I saw this meme while looking for memes on pepper.

Trinidad_Moruga.jpg


No, wait, it wasn't that, but I'll leave it up anyway in case anyone wants something spicy.

This was the one I saw, along with another one shown below.

Etj2ZAFXAAADfcf.png


wmamhl9bj4g61.png


Of course, the second one is correct, since the Americas still would have existed even with cheaper pepper.

But it just goes to show the causes and effects of history. Europeans knew of vast riches to the east, yet struggled to find a way to travel there and access them. Little was known about the geography or the shape of the world. The Ottomans blocked Europeans' access to the east, so they searched for other ways. The Portuguese tried to explore the coast of Africa to see if there was a way around Africa. Columbus wanted to convince Spain to finance a voyage heading west, believing that the Atlantic and Pacific were a single ocean which he could cross to reach "The Indies," as it was called at the time. Such a voyage was considered foolhardy and dangerous, and it would almost certainly end in failure, disaster, or death.

In other words, there had to be a pretty powerful incentive for people to engage in such a risky and dangerous enterprise. It probably wasn't just for cheaper pepper, but what if the Ottomans had been more amicable in allowing trade access? Or what if the Byzantine Empire had been strong enough to repel the Ottomans and keep trade routes to Asia open? There might not have ever been any strong incentive to explore other paths.

America probably still would have been "discovered," but under completely different circumstances - and it most likely would have been called something else.

But the expansionist greed of the Ottomans led to the expansionist greed of the Europeans, who created expansionist greedy colonies in the Americas.

All because we wanted cheaper pepper. I don't even like pepper that much.

What a world we live in. Any thoughts?
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
The spice trade to Europe was generally one that went through a lot of hands - from Indonesia to Malacca to India, then via the Indian Ocean trade alongside Arabia towards Egypt and Iraq, passing through Ottoman territory until they were sold to Italian merchants, who then would further distribute these spices across Europe. Every single one of these stops would raise a markup that would be felt downstream those trade routes, which is how, in the end, spices became so horrendously expensive in the first place.

I would say the Ottomans were hardly the only ones calling the shots here, or even the prime decisionmakers - after the demise of the Eastern Roman Empire and the conquest of Crimea, Athens and Cyprus, Venice was enjoying an effective monopoly dealing in spices via Arabic middlemen from Egypt and the Ottoman Empire, and a lot of the financial impetus for the Iberian explorations came from rival Italian merchant states, such as Genoa and Pisa.

And these latter two, alongside the Iberian monarchies, are unlikely to be cowed by merely a little cheaper prices on spice - their goal was to circumvent this long chain of middlemen altogether, be the ones in control of the trade - i.e. their goal was not to just to get spice cheaper, but to effectively replace the Venetians and Ottomans in their role as gatekeepers to the spice trade.
 
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
What a world we live in. Any thoughts?
N and S America then would have become an enormous garden of fruit filled with immortal playing children forever and ever.

Another possibility is that the Americas may not have been discovered until England's industrial revolution began. Then they would have become an enormous British colony, unknown to Spain or France. Just think. No Quebecois or Latinos! No ice skating rinks. No hockey. No baseball. No basketball. Americas would be top secret known only to British agents. Steampunk continents.

Or...the Americas may have been discovered by a Japanese ship, then settled by Japan. That would have resulted in an amazing and sophisticated civilization. Imagine the Japanese with lots of land to spare. I cannot. They have always been island people, so putting them onto a continent would turn them into something else.

Perhaps Russia would have discovered the Americas first. The Czars would have claimed them and allotted them to various generals and lords. The Russian Orthodox church would then have become far more influential than the other churches. The protestants would have been quickly erased from existence, the early reformation stopped.
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I

America probably still would have been "discovered," but under completely different circumstances - and it most likely would have been called something else.

America could have been discovered by the French at a later date and then you would all have to learn French instead of English, and trust me, you don't want to have to learn French grammar ;)
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
America could have been discovered by the French at a later date and then you would all have to learn French instead of English, and trust me, you don't want to have to learn French grammar ;)

What if the Russians had discovered Alaska in 1492 and then conquered both Americas?
You don't want to learn Russian grammar...trust me.:p
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
N and S America then would have become an enormous garden of fruit filled with immortal playing children forever and ever.

Another possibility is that the Americas may not have been discovered until England's industrial revolution began. Then they would have become an enormous British colony, unknown to Spain or France. Just think. No Quebecois or Latinos! No ice skating rinks. No hockey. No baseball. No basketball. Americas would be top secret known only to British agents. Steampunk continents.

I expect we'd still have freedom fries.

Or...the Americas may have been discovered by a Japanese ship, then settled by Japan. That would have resulted in an amazing and sophisticated civilization. Imagine the Japanese with lots of land to spare. I cannot. They have always been island people, so putting them onto a continent would turn them into something else.

True, although the English were island people, and look what they did when they encountered a continent as large as America. The colonists realized they didn't need to live on an island anymore.

Perhaps Russia would have discovered the Americas first. The Czars would have claimed them and allotted them to various generals and lords. The Russian Orthodox church would then have become far more influential than the other churches. The protestants would have been quickly erased from existence, the early reformation stopped.

Possibly, although Russia had their own routes to China through the crumbling Mongol Empire, although that carried different kinds of perils. They were once part of the Mongol Empire and would eventually fill the void and take over the vast territories once held by the Mongols. But it was a slow process which took centuries.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Hm. I'm inclined to think those Renaissance era European seafarers would have tried to circumnavigate the globe without the incentive of cheaper pepper. Just to prove they could.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
America could have been discovered by the French at a later date and then you would all have to learn French instead of English, and trust me, you don't want to have to learn French grammar ;)

My grandfather was born in Louisiana and grew up speaking French. But he moved away at an early age and spoke English ever since. However, as I understand it, the kind of French they speak among the Cajuns in Louisiana is much different than how they speak it in France.

I suppose that can lead to a different question regarding the French and Indian War. If the French had won that war, then the British colonies would be French. The French Revolution probably still would have happened, though, with Napoleon ruling the French Empire in Europe, with his distant cousin, Napoleon XIV ruling in America. Probably not much different from now, except we'd be speaking French.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
America could have been discovered by the French at a later date and then you would all have to learn French instead of English, and trust me, you don't want to have to learn French grammar ;)
There's already plenty of French to America's legacy, from the banks of Saint-Laurent down to the buyoux of Nouveau Orléans. But Napoleon needed some quick cash for his wars, and the US was flush with it briefly, so Lousiana went to the 'States.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
What a world we live in. Any thoughts?
The Chinese and Scandinavians where both here before Columbus. And Columbus didn't even land here. Amerigo Vespucci did.
When will we ever be done with this silliness of celebrating a nobody who made such a blunder that despite there being no tigers or elephants or other animals found in Indiana, despite the architecture of the area not matching Indiana. And we even still try to say he set out to prove the Earth is round.
Why?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I saw this meme while looking for memes on pepper.

Trinidad_Moruga.jpg


No, wait, it wasn't that, but I'll leave it up anyway in case anyone wants something spicy.

This was the one I saw, along with another one shown below.

Etj2ZAFXAAADfcf.png


wmamhl9bj4g61.png


Of course, the second one is correct, since the Americas still would have existed even with cheaper pepper.

But it just goes to show the causes and effects of history. Europeans knew of vast riches to the east, yet struggled to find a way to travel there and access them. Little was known about the geography or the shape of the world. The Ottomans blocked Europeans' access to the east, so they searched for other ways. The Portuguese tried to explore the coast of Africa to see if there was a way around Africa. Columbus wanted to convince Spain to finance a voyage heading west, believing that the Atlantic and Pacific were a single ocean which he could cross to reach "The Indies," as it was called at the time. Such a voyage was considered foolhardy and dangerous, and it would almost certainly end in failure, disaster, or death.

In other words, there had to be a pretty powerful incentive for people to engage in such a risky and dangerous enterprise. It probably wasn't just for cheaper pepper, but what if the Ottomans had been more amicable in allowing trade access? Or what if the Byzantine Empire had been strong enough to repel the Ottomans and keep trade routes to Asia open? There might not have ever been any strong incentive to explore other paths.

America probably still would have been "discovered," but under completely different circumstances - and it most likely would have been called something else.

But the expansionist greed of the Ottomans led to the expansionist greed of the Europeans, who created expansionist greedy colonies in the Americas.

All because we wanted cheaper pepper. I don't even like pepper that much.

What a world we live in. Any thoughts?
The Americas had been "discovered" multiple times over tens of thousands of years. The Norse were here 500 years before Columbus and they had the good sense to leave. :rolleyes:
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Chinese and Scandinavians where both here before Columbus. And Columbus didn't even land here. Amerigo Vespucci did.
When will we ever be done with this silliness of celebrating a nobody who made such a blunder that despite there being no tigers or elephants or other animals found in Indiana, despite the architecture of the area not matching Indiana. And we even still try to say he set out to prove the Earth is round.
Why?

I'm not really "celebrating" Columbus. I was just pointing out that they had a limited understanding of the geography of the world at that time, even despite the earlier arrivals of the Chinese and the Scandinavians. Historically, his voyage was still significant, as it was the first among many other voyages of exploration and colonization to follow, as others wanted in on the action.

I just thought it was interesting to view the causes and effects of history. What was caused by a desire for another trade route to China and India led to something completely different. Europeans eventually did find a trade route to China and India, although that would also lead to a host of other problems in those countries.
 
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