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What if I can't be saved?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Ormiston said:
Good stuff lunamoth! "Saved" means as I understand it that I have been forgiven of my sins by God. That I've accepted Jesus' gift and have accepted him as my savior from Hell. The Kingdom of God or Heaven to me is eternity in the presence of God.
Here's where Luna and I differ. I think that God's love is big enough to make up for even our lack of love. I think God loves you unconditionally, whether you love God, or not. I don't think you have to accept Jesus in order to have been given the gift of salvation. Here's the good news: You don't have to do anything in order to have been saved! That's unconditional grace.
It has to do with the order of things: First comes salvation. Then comes our response to that unconditional grace.
It's your response to that unconditional grace that I think you're really wondering about. For some reason, you can't believe it, or accept it, or get your mind around it, and that troubles you.
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
Here's where Luna and I differ. I think that God's love is big enough to make up for even our lack of love. I think God loves you unconditionally, whether you love God, or not. I don't think you have to accept Jesus in order to have been given the gift of salvation. Here's the good news: You don't have to do anything in order to have been saved! That's unconditional grace.
It has to do with the order of things: First comes salvation. Then comes our response to that unconditional grace.
It's your response to that unconditional grace that I think you're really wondering about. For some reason, you can't believe it, or accept it, or get your mind around it, and that troubles you.
I don't believe I'm troubled by the supernatural any more or less than anyone else. I am troubled by the religious fall-out seen in men and women in the world today. I've always believed, even as a child and prior to any religious teachings that salvation from life will be found in our deaths. Or simply that we are all equal in death. That's the foundation for my life-long faith.

I enjoy communicating on this site because I enjoy urging people to look at things they take for granted (like the validity of their beliefs) from different angles. I also enjoy it when someone else helps me to see something from a new perspective.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Ormiston said:
What advice do the Christians have for me? I can't be saved. I can't believe. I know it with all of my heart. It is who I am. Is it my failing or Gods?
I especially didn't want to look at the other posts you have received, because I didn't want my own views to be 'moulded' around someone else's reply.

I don't think it is anyone's 'failing'; maybe it's just not the right time for you.........and even if it isn't, and you die an atheist (To my way of thinking) you will still have time to acknowledge Jesus, and be accepted by him.

I don't believe in hell, and I believe we will ultimately all be 'as one' in heaven, at the end of time. Maybe you are trying too hard (That can happen); maybe what you see around you gives you no encouragement to believe in anything you can't see. I wouldn't blame you if that was the case (not that it is my place to 'blame' - I used it in the context of 'understand rather than blame).

I guess what you need to do is to look through all the garbage lying around, look past angry selfish people, and concentrate on the innocent.

That includes young children, flowers, trees, animals.........all part of Nature; that's where you will find God. Like I said, even if you can't see him, you'll get every chance to do so.:)
 
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Karl R

Active Member
Ormiston said:
I am angered at funerals held in churches because they insist on drawing attention away from the dead person and redirecting it towards God/Jesus.
Perhaps I can give you a new perspective so you don't have to feel angry at funerals.

Christian funerals aren't performed for the benefit of the deceased. They're for the benefit of the survivors: the friends and family who are grieving.

The christian message is included in the service because many people find it comforting under these circumstances. If none of the attendees will find it comforting, then it shouldn't be included. Frequently the deceased (or the family of the deceased) will have expressed an opinion about what should be included/excluded from the service. Most ministers are very accommodating to these requests.

Ormiston said:
it sounds as if you are an open-minded person which I think is an asset. If you think the answer is "each to their own" that makes sense to me.
If you follow a path where you've found truth, and that path leads you to treat other people better, I won't try to dissuade you from that path. That's the short version.
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
Karl R said:
Perhaps I can give you a new perspective so you don't have to feel angry at funerals.

Christian funerals aren't performed for the benefit of the deceased. They're for the benefit of the survivors: the friends and family who are grieving.

The christian message is included in the service because many people find it comforting under these circumstances. If none of the attendees will find it comforting, then it shouldn't be included. Frequently the deceased (or the family of the deceased) will have expressed an opinion about what should be included/excluded from the service. Most ministers are very accommodating to these requests.

If you follow a path where you've found truth, and that path leads you to treat other people better, I won't try to dissuade you from that path. That's the short version.
Perhaps what I find comforting is different from most others. Believe me, I never feel sorry for the dead, only the living. But, I find comfort in their memory and I don't worry about their "soul". So it should be easy to see where I'm coming from. Good points BTW...and, what's the long version? Just kidding, just kidding! :)
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Ormiston said:
Fair enough. Specifically why I believe I am incapable of being a Christian is from the strong physical reaction I experience at the very thought and the thoughts that accompany this reaction. I'm revolted by the Christian message. I have my own faith in life and feel blessed, but I rarely put this faith into words. I am angered at funerals held in churches because they insist on drawing attention away from the dead person and redirecting it towards God/Jesus. Christianity goes against my moral fiber.

From your first statements though, it sounds as if you are an open-minded person which I think is an asset. If you think the answer is "each to their own" that makes sense to me. However, I'd rather let you answer for yourself.
Ahh.....now that is completley different. Feels like I'm having Deja' Vu here. I feel the same way you do about some of the messages that are portrayed. I'm am also angered about the things you have mentioned such as funerals. I remeber reading an article written by a Christian women about her husband. In the article she was disscussing how much more she loved God than her husband. She talked about her husband as if he were a Playstation; as if he were just an accessory to bring her enjoyment until she reached Heaven. After which their relationship becomes meaningless. I find things like this absurd. Actually I find it repulsive. At times Christians can seem so loving and then there are other times where they seem to be so cold by disregarding things such as the gift of life and the value of relationships. A lot of Christians seem to forget God's second greatest command: Love others as you would love yourself. There will be people who tell you that if you don't do everything just like they do, then you're not a true believer in God and that you are just like "the rest of world." If this is the message you're getting from people then seperate yourself from them. You don't have to think or act like the status quo of religion to be "saved". All God wants from you is to have a one on one relationship with you and contrary to popular belief, you don't need a church or other people to accomplish this. I choose not to affiliate myself with any type of organized religion because I don't want my relationship to be tainted with other people views and opinions. My relationship with God is between me and him, not me and his supposed "elite". I definatley apply the "to each his own" concept in my realtionship with God. Sounds like you should do the same.
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Bouncing Ball said:
Because it appears that feeling God is the only thing unexplainable. It always ends with the 'warm and fuzzy feeling' story.
I wouldn't call what I experienced warm and fuzzy. In fact it was quite the opposite. If you believe in the supernatural then God is VERY explainable. The concept of God will always be unexplainable to an Atheist because Atheists do not consider the supernatural a possibility. Which is like weighted dice. They don't accept supernatural occurance as a possibility and then they say "Bring on the evidence!" No wonder they get the results they do.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
sojourner said:
Here's where Luna and I differ. I think that God's love is big enough to make up for even our lack of love. I think God loves you unconditionally, whether you love God, or not. I don't think you have to accept Jesus in order to have been given the gift of salvation. Here's the good news: You don't have to do anything in order to have been saved! That's unconditional grace.
It has to do with the order of things: First comes salvation. Then comes our response to that unconditional grace.
It's your response to that unconditional grace that I think you're really wondering about. For some reason, you can't believe it, or accept it, or get your mind around it, and that troubles you.
Hi Sojourner, I'm curious about how you think what you and I have said differ. Perhaps you mistook my view about kinetic and potential love to mean that I think someone would not be united with God in the afterlife. Not so! I don't know what the afterlife really will be, beyond the promise of being united with God, but for that aspect of 'salvation' I don't think anyone is left out. The worst I can possibly imagine, and this is a metaphor mind you, is you get to the pearly gates and Christ/God/Spirit is there with loving open arms welcoming you in (Hitler, Gandhi, Jeffery Dahmer, and Richard Dawkinsand too) and you still get to choose whether to enter. You might get to review your life with 'clear' eyes, which would be hell enough for most of us. I also believe there is, in the next life, a chance for making ammends for our failures in this life. These are all just my conjectures and musings because we don't know what the next life holds besides the promise of being with God, but, bottom line, Christ did it for all of us whether we choose to recognize it or not.

I would have phrased it that ormiston is 'saved' whether or not be chooses to accept this in this life, but from what he's said I do not think that phrasing is particularly compassionate or meaningful to him. More to the point, if anyone is left unsaved, then none of us are saved. Does this mean we need to go around browbeating people into saying Jesus is my Savior? No way! It means we pass Christ's love along into the world and build the Kingdom here and now, as we wait in expectation for Christ to return and complete the job.

Having said all fo that...

... in this life we still need to choose our salvation, choose our refuge, I think, and this is an important distinction. That's why I asked ormiston about salvation and the Kingdom of God. Hi sanswer suggested that the whole ball of wax is only important in the next life. That's not the view I hold. What we believe, what we choose for our worldview, Who or what we choose as our God and our Savior makes all the difference in how we conduct our lives. As we read, think, and act, as we pray and worship, so are we molded, so is our heart transformed, and so the Kingdom is built. This makes a difference every minute of every day and it is a 'salvation' that only you can leave yourself out of.

peace,
lunamoth
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Mister_T said:
Ahh.....now that is completley different. Feels like I'm having Deja' Vu here. I feel the same way you do about "The Christian Message" that is portrayed. I'm am also angered about the things you have mentioned such as funerals. I remeber reading an article written by a Christian women about her husband. In the article she was disscussing how much more she loved God than her husband. She talked about her husband as if he were a Playstation; as if he were just an accessory to bring her enjoyment until she reached Heaven. After which their relationship becomes meaningless. I find things like this absurd. Actually I find it repulsive. At times Christians can seem so loving and then there are other times where they seem to be so cold by disregarding things such as the gift of life and the value of relationships. A lot of Christians seem to forget God's second greatest command: Love others as you would love yourself. There will be people who tell you that if you don't do everything just like they do, then you're not a true believer in God and that you are just like "the rest of world." If this is the message you're getting from people then seperate yourself from them. You don't have to think or act like the status quo of religion to be "saved". All God wants from you is to have a one on one relationship with you and contrary to popular belief, you don't need a church or other people to accomplish this. I choose not to affiliate myself with any type of organized religion because I don't want my relationship to be tainted with other people views and opinions. My relationship with God is between me and him, not me and his supposed "elite". I definatley apply the "to each his own" concept in my realtionship with God. Sounds like you should do the same.
Keep in mind that not all Christians think alike.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Mister_T said:
I wouldn't call what I experienced warm and fuzzy. In fact it was quite the opposite. If you believe in the supernatural then God is VERY explainable. The concept of God will always be unexplainable to an Atheist because Atheists do not consider the supernatural a possibility. Which is like weighted dice. They don't accept supernatural occurance as a possibility and then they say "Bring on the evidence!" No wonder they get the results they do.
True (about not being all warm and fuzzy, not being easy. Belief in God should make one downright uncomfortable in this life: the contrast between what we are and what we are called to be, how the world is and what it should be...

Also right on point about the weighted dice. If you start with a base assumption that there is nothing more that what we can observe and measure objectively, right there you've ruled out Something More.

peace,
lunamoth
 

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
I have a lot I want to say so please forgive me if it's long.


First on how I see a funeral for someone who has been saved: I see it as a last good-bye and that THAT person who trusted in God woudl be proud that if in their death someone could be lead to the Lord. Sometimes through death we find the light...it's not meant to take away from the memory of the deceased at all it's reassuring to know when you have a Christian service at a funeral to hear a message that if you'll miss this person you should be saved so that their parting is but for a little while until your death and you will see them again in glory.

second: the funeral of one who no one is sure about this persons salvation because no one saw any fruits of salvation in their lives...this IS a sad time indeed because it's so hard for a true Christian to even think that someone they know and love may end up not with God but in Hell upon judgement day...It actually hurts you in your heart. To have a service to offer salvation to any who are listening is nice so that if anyone who hasn't heard a salvation message that may be there can if they choose find salvation instead of the burn of hell in the end.

Unlike Mich I DO believe in the eternal Hell...it would be wrong to believe in heaven without also believing in hell...there is scripture all over teh Bible about the truth of Hell Fire(eternal lake of fire and brimstone and burning for ever and ever without quenching).

You said you feel inside as if you can't be saved. I've got to refer you back to what dawny0826 said as well as Mister_T...There is no sin that can not be forgiven and a lot of times folks feel as if they have sinned so bad they can't possibly be forgiven for it...but God doesn't see sin as we do...if you have ever told a lie you have sinned as a person has committed adultery,murder and the like...these are all sins and God hates all sin. When Jesus went to the cross HE paid for each sin knowing who will be HIS in the end and he paid for every one of them seperately on our accounts...NOT one sin when forgiven has gone unpunished...that is what Jesus DID on the cross. He suffered out every sin each of us who has , is and will be saved...His torment was great as He took on each and every one of tehm...You can be saved if it's part of what you want for your life.

This is how I see it if you will receive salvation...

you are a person who wants to fulfill the meaning of your life here on this earth to the fullest as was intended upon your birth.

You are a person who wants only the truth and wants to live life as a kind and loving person who has compassion,empathy,and love for ALL human beings no matter how far away from God they may be. They are valuable souls in my eyes and not one deserves the fires of Hell so when I hear someone say they don't believe in God it hurts me in my heart for that person will never know complete contentment in every day their soul spends inside their body... there is a contentment in salvation that is almost unspeakable in description. It doesn't hit you like BAM it creaps in and one day when you aren't expecting it you feel it and it's so reassuring to feel that there is no need to fear a thing that is with-in the earth.

You say you can't be saved...I say I think you are being lead by the Holy Spirit to ask these questions and one of the answers you receive will be the one that you will look back at one day and say yes...that was the answer...we don't always have the answers for what we seek at the time we seek for them but God knows each and every heart that will receive Him and the exact time He will amke you His own.

The term Christian...too bland for what you feel within the bounds of God...the term is supposed to unite Gods people but it hasn't it's lead to dissention...some pretend Christians act within the flesh and make the appearence of Christianity less somehow. So instead of uniting Gods people it's caused them to feel less at anothers doings. I chose to just be a child of God...reborn into the family God through His Son Jesus Christ and scantified through baptism. I AM trying as best as I can to walk a godly walk although I know I can never come close to what Jesus portrayed for us to assimulate...all I can do is my best and give God all the glory for the days I succeed in.

Last...being a Christian in all it's glory is not as fuzzy and warm as it would be said to be...it's a struggle every day to over come the flesh and live in the Spirit...but the reward is not within the bounds of this earth...the rewards are laid up in Heaven for those of us who manage to over come the flesh and continue to walk in the Light of Jesus pure love!

Thank you for your tolerence in all I've had to express...it's my opinion and I feel it as much from my heart as from my mind:curtsy: Thank You!
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
fromthe heart said:
You say you can't be saved...I say I think you are being lead by the Holy Spirit to ask these questions and one of the answers you receive will be the one that you will look back at one day and say yes...that was the answer...we don't always have the answers for what we seek at the time we seek for them but God knows each and every heart that will receive Him and the exact time He will amke you His own.
I've been told this many times before because I am somewhat unique in that I will listen to Christians, Muslims, etc. and hear their words patiently. I must admit that I am more interested in the person than the message. If it's their message they want to portray then I take that into consideration. Fromtheheart, what is it that MOVES you about your beliefs? What are the fundamental ideas that give you so much strength and conviction?
 

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Ormiston said:
I've been told this many times before because I am somewhat unique in that I will listen to Christians, Muslims, etc. and hear their words patiently. I must admit that I am more interested in the person than the message. If it's their message they want to portray then I take that into consideration. Fromtheheart, what is it that MOVES you about your beliefs? What are the fundamental ideas that give you so much strength and conviction?
There is NOTHING wrong with what you describe. You look passed the difference in beliefs and focus directly on the source.....the person. Their heart. And you take into consideration what they're saying. That's called an open mind and more people should have one.
 

Ormiston

Well-Known Member
Mister_T said:
There is NOTHING wrong with what you describe. You look passed the difference in beliefs and focus directly on the source.....the person. Their heart. And you take into consideration what they're saying. That's called an open mind and more people should have one.
To be honest, I'm not seeking salvation with this thread. I was just trying (for a change) to find an open line of communication with the Christians and the Christian-ish folk. I've found the responses intriguing though and the conversation is great.
 
Ormiston said:
Fair enough. Specifically why I believe I am incapable of being a Christian is from the strong physical reaction I experience at the very thought and the thoughts that accompany this reaction. I'm revolted by the Christian message. I have my own faith in life and feel blessed, but I rarely put this faith into words. I am angered at funerals held in churches because they insist on drawing attention away from the dead person and redirecting it towards God/Jesus. Christianity goes against my moral fiber.

.
It sounds like similar internal conflict I experienced when I questioned church ethics, which do not always agree with what "feels" ethical. I found the problem to be not the spirituality or the relationship with God, but the teachings of the church. There is God, and then there is religion, and they don't always have the same goals. I urge you to keep questioning what you don't understand of the church, or what is contrary to your own sense of morality.

Thanks for having an open mind!
 

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
Mister_T said:
I wouldn't call what I experienced warm and fuzzy. In fact it was quite the opposite. If you believe in the supernatural then God is VERY explainable. The concept of God will always be unexplainable to an Atheist because Atheists do not consider the supernatural a possibility. Which is like weighted dice. They don't accept supernatural occurance as a possibility and then they say "Bring on the evidence!" No wonder they get the results they do.
That's nonsense. I do believe in what you call the supernatural. Only I don't translate it to spirits, ghosts and God. I believe there are more things we can't see than things we can see. In fact, we are finding more and more of them. And I know there are lots of things we cannot prove yet. So the results I am expecting are supposed to be "supernatural". And don't you think it works the other way around as wel. religious people get the results they look for?

To get back at the original subject.. :) .. Why would I believe in something that I never felt before? never saw before? What is God different to me than a 15 cm pink elephant besides the fact that God has milions of followers that believe the most rediculous things? And why would I start believing in that if all those people keep telling me they can't explain their selves?
 

maggie2

Active Member
Ormiston,

Can I ask why you'd want to be saved if you don't believe in God in the first place? And my second question is: Who says you need to be saved?

If you are, as you proclaim, an athiest, then why would you be worried about being saved? You don't believe in God so apparently you also don't believe in salvation...so why try to get something you don't believe in? Are you looking for salvation because Christians tell you that you're going to hell if you aren't saved? If you can clarify those questions maybe I can offer some useful ideas on how to deal with your problem.
 
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