What happens when we die?

Kemosloby · Mar 12, 2017

moorea944 said:
The bible is clear about what happens in death. When scripture talks about "a sleep", it is a play on words. It is not really an actual sleep, but it is referred to a sleep because of the resurrection. We will awake from death. When we are dead, we dont remember anything. When we are raised, we will be alive again, with memories, body, everything.

This is not a real story. It is a parable.
If it were real, a few things would have some problems.

1. Stress is often placed upon words "there was a certain rich man" to emphasize the historical character of the language used. But in Luke 16:1 the parable of the unjust steward commences with the same language. Must this parable be read literally? (Similar language is used in other parables - see Luke 12:16)

2. The passage speaks about bodies not souls. E.g., eyes, bosom (vs. 23) tip of finger and tongue (vs. 24).

3. Souls are said to be immaterial (the material body being left in the grave), how then could Lazarus (if really a soul) be carried by angels? (vs. 22).

4. The passage states that there was a great gulf fixed between Abraham and the rich man, yet they could both see and converse with each other (vs. 26). Is the great gulf to be taken literally?

5. Is heaven literally a place where conversations can be carried on between those enjoying bliss and those agonizing in hell?

6. How could Lazarus go literally to Abraham's bosom? Abraham (as now) was unquestionably dead and without his reward.

So you see, this could not be a real story.

So you're denying the existence of a soul?

moorea944 · Mar 12, 2017

Kemosloby said:
I can put it another way. The bible says "the dead sleep in their graves". So death is like sleep, and when we sleep we're unconscious but retain our memories for when we awake. So perhaps MHz is onto something that the unfortunate ones do not get to sleep in the grave, but are wide awake to suffer.

Luke 16:24

The Rich Man and Lazarus
…In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side. So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer.…

I can put it another way. The bible says "the dead sleep in their graves". So death is like sleep, and when we sleep we're unconscious but retain our memories for when we awake. So perhaps MHz is onto something that the unfortunate ones do not get to sleep in the grave, but are wide awake to suffer.

The bible is clear about what happens in death. When scripture talks about "a sleep", it is a play on words. It is not really an actual sleep, but it is referred to a sleep because of the resurrection. We will awake from death. When we are dead, we dont remember anything. When we are raised, we will be alive again, with memories, body, everything.

Larzarus and the rich man

This is not a real story. It is a parable.
If it were real, a few things would have some problems.

1. Stress is often placed upon words "there was a certain rich man" to emphasize the historical character of the language used. But in Luke 16:1 the parable of the unjust steward commences with the same language. Must this parable be read literally? (Similar language is used in other parables - see Luke 12:16)

2. The passage speaks about bodies not souls. E.g., eyes, bosom (vs. 23) tip of finger and tongue (vs. 24).

3. Souls are said to be immaterial (the material body being left in the grave), how then could Lazarus (if really a soul) be carried by angels? (vs. 22).

4. The passage states that there was a great gulf fixed between Abraham and the rich man, yet they could both see and converse with each other (vs. 26). Is the great gulf to be taken literally?

5. Is heaven literally a place where conversations can be carried on between those enjoying bliss and those agonizing in hell?

6. How could Lazarus go literally to Abraham's bosom? Abraham (as now) was unquestionably dead and without his reward.

So you see, this could not be a real story.

Kemosloby said:
So you're denying the existence of a soul?

So you're denying the existence of a soul?

Absolutely!!!! Man gave man a soul. God didn't. Adam became a soul. A soul can eat, sleep and die. Die?.... Well there goes the theory of the immortal soul....

A soul in scripture is a living breathing person. A frame that is alive. That is what a soul is. Unfortunetly, throughout the ages, pagan religion has crept in, now man "has a soul'.

Kemosloby · Mar 12, 2017

moorea944 said:
The bible is clear about what happens in death. When scripture talks about "a sleep", it is a play on words. It is not really an actual sleep, but it is referred to a sleep because of the resurrection. We will awake from death. When we are dead, we dont remember anything. When we are raised, we will be alive again, with memories, body, everything.

This is not a real story. It is a parable.
If it were real, a few things would have some problems.

1. Stress is often placed upon words "there was a certain rich man" to emphasize the historical character of the language used. But in Luke 16:1 the parable of the unjust steward commences with the same language. Must this parable be read literally? (Similar language is used in other parables - see Luke 12:16)

2. The passage speaks about bodies not souls. E.g., eyes, bosom (vs. 23) tip of finger and tongue (vs. 24).

3. Souls are said to be immaterial (the material body being left in the grave), how then could Lazarus (if really a soul) be carried by angels? (vs. 22).

4. The passage states that there was a great gulf fixed between Abraham and the rich man, yet they could both see and converse with each other (vs. 26). Is the great gulf to be taken literally?

5. Is heaven literally a place where conversations can be carried on between those enjoying bliss and those agonizing in hell?

6. How could Lazarus go literally to Abraham's bosom? Abraham (as now) was unquestionably dead and without his reward.

So you see, this could not be a real story.

Absolutely!!!! Man gave man a soul. God didn't. Adam became a soul. A soul can eat, sleep and die. Die?.... Well there goes the theory of the immortal soul....

A soul in scripture is a living breathing person. A frame that is alive. That is what a soul is. Unfortunetly, throughout the ages, pagan religion has crept in, now man "has a soul'.

How do you explain the passage. "Do not fear man who can destroy the body, fear God who can destroy the body and soul in hell"

Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

FaithSeeker · Mar 12, 2017

Rapha said:
Those who loved Jesus Christ stay with Him in a paradise until after the 7 Year Tribulation. Then they will live with Jesus on this planet during His 1000 year rule.

Those who didn't love Jesus Christ go to whats left of Sheol for 1000 years until Judgment Day.

How do I post on a forum to start a new thread? Sorry to put this here, it's the only thing I can figure out!

moorea944 · Mar 12, 2017

Kemosloby said:
How do you explain the passage. "Do not fear man who can destroy the body, fear God who can destroy the body and soul in hell"

Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

How do you explain the passage. "Do not fear man who can destroy the body, fear God who can destroy the body and soul in hell"

Again, what is soul in the bible and what is this verse talking about. There are a few solutions to this...

1. "Rather fear him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell" is proof that the soul is destructible and therefore, not immortal.

2. Since both soul and body can be destroyed in hell ("Gehenna" - the garbage dump outside the walls of Jerusalem), this indicates that the soul is as destructible as the body since both can be destroyed in the same place. Is this what the immortal soulist wants from this passage?

3. What is meant by "not able to kill the soul"? Simply, "Fear not (for an instant) them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy you utterly and finally." For the disciple, his life is "hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3) and although men may kill the body, in the resurrection this life will be given back to the body. (See Col. 3:4).

4. The Greek word, "psuche" translated "soul" in this verse has the meaning of "life". In Matt. 16:25, "psuche" is translated "life": "For whosoever shall save his life ["psuche"] shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ["psuche"] for my sake shall find it. (In the R.S.V. "psuche" is translated "life" in vs. 26: "For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life.") The similarity of context suggests that "life" in Matt. 10:28 should be read for "soul".

You really need to stop looking at the word "soul" as something that is immortal and something that is given to man. The bible knows nothing of that..... God has the last say on life. Man can kill our body now, but God has the last say on our life, since some will be raised to life again.

Thief · Mar 12, 2017

moorea944 said:
Again, what is soul in the bible and what is this verse talking about. There are a few solutions to this...

1. "Rather fear him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell" is proof that the soul is destructible and therefore, not immortal.

2. Since both soul and body can be destroyed in hell ("Gehenna" - the garbage dump outside the walls of Jerusalem), this indicates that the soul is as destructible as the body since both can be destroyed in the same place. Is this what the immortal soulist wants from this passage?

3. What is meant by "not able to kill the soul"? Simply, "Fear not (for an instant) them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy you utterly and finally." For the disciple, his life is "hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3) and although men may kill the body, in the resurrection this life will be given back to the body. (See Col. 3:4).

4. The Greek word, "psuche" translated "soul" in this verse has the meaning of "life". In Matt. 16:25, "psuche" is translated "life": "For whosoever shall save his life ["psuche"] shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ["psuche"] for my sake shall find it. (In the R.S.V. "psuche" is translated "life" in vs. 26: "For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life.") The similarity of context suggests that "life" in Matt. 10:28 should be read for "soul".

You really need to stop looking at the word "soul" as something that is immortal and something that is given to man. The bible knows nothing of that..... God has the last say on life. Man can kill our body now, but God has the last say on our life, since some will be raised to life again.

not all believe that....
just had some posting with someone (maybe of Jewish faith)....
not believing in life after death

you think life after death is physical?

Kemosloby · Mar 12, 2017

moorea944 said:
Again, what is soul in the bible and what is this verse talking about. There are a few solutions to this...

1. "Rather fear him which is able to destroy both body and soul in hell" is proof that the soul is destructible and therefore, not immortal.

2. Since both soul and body can be destroyed in hell ("Gehenna" - the garbage dump outside the walls of Jerusalem), this indicates that the soul is as destructible as the body since both can be destroyed in the same place. Is this what the immortal soulist wants from this passage?

3. What is meant by "not able to kill the soul"? Simply, "Fear not (for an instant) them which kill the body, but are not able to destroy you utterly and finally." For the disciple, his life is "hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3) and although men may kill the body, in the resurrection this life will be given back to the body. (See Col. 3:4).

4. The Greek word, "psuche" translated "soul" in this verse has the meaning of "life". In Matt. 16:25, "psuche" is translated "life": "For whosoever shall save his life ["psuche"] shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life ["psuche"] for my sake shall find it. (In the R.S.V. "psuche" is translated "life" in vs. 26: "For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life.") The similarity of context suggests that "life" in Matt. 10:28 should be read for "soul".

You really need to stop looking at the word "soul" as something that is immortal and something that is given to man. The bible knows nothing of that..... God has the last say on life. Man can kill our body now, but God has the last say on our life, since some will be raised to life again.

I don't want to argue too much because I believe mostly the same things about the resurrection and all that. And you maybe right, it's a pretty good argument anyway. But this body is not the same as the resurrected body. They compare it as a mere seed. I guess you have to wait and see to know for sure. Maybe by destruction of the soul, they mean destruction of the resurrected body, the "immortal" body. Which is immortal unless God destroys it.

Thief · Mar 12, 2017

Kemosloby said:
I don't want to argue too much because I believe mostly the same things about the resurrection and all that. And you maybe right, it's a pretty good argument anyway. But this body is not the same as the resurrected body. They compare it as a mere seed. I guess you have to wait and see to know for sure. Maybe by destruction of the soul, they mean destruction of the resurrected body, the "immortal" body. Which is immortal unless God destroys it.

more to that portion you perceive of yourself after your last breath
that would be the item God and heaven will look at

moorea944 · Mar 13, 2017

Thief said:
not all believe that....
just had some posting with someone (maybe of Jewish faith)....
not believing in life after death

you think life after death is physical?

I don't believe in life after death as in the body is still in the grave and the soul or spirit goes somewhere else.
I do believe in the resurrection. Scripture tells us that when Christ comes back, the first thing that he will do with his angels is raise the dead and judge the world. And the resurrection is physical and real. Paul and the apostles also preached that in Acts and Paul and OT write about that. Read 1 Cor 15, Dan 12, There are so many other books about the resurrection. It's sad that people believe in their own ways instead of God's word.

moorea944 · Mar 13, 2017

Kemosloby said:
I don't want to argue too much because I believe mostly the same things about the resurrection and all that. And you maybe right, it's a pretty good argument anyway. But this body is not the same as the resurrected body. They compare it as a mere seed. I guess you have to wait and see to know for sure. Maybe by destruction of the soul, they mean destruction of the resurrected body, the "immortal" body. Which is immortal unless God destroys it.

This is what I see. We do not have anything immortal yet. It is a gift that we will receive at his coming. We will be raised the same person at resurrection and then receive immortality.

Thief · Mar 13, 2017

moorea944 said:
I don't believe in life after death as in the body is still in the grave and the soul or spirit goes somewhere else.
I do believe in the resurrection. Scripture tells us that when Christ comes back, the first thing that he will do with his angels is raise the dead and judge the world. And the resurrection is physical and real. Paul and the apostles also preached that in Acts and Paul and OT write about that. Read 1 Cor 15, Dan 12, There are so many other books about the resurrection. It's sad that people believe in their own ways instead of God's word.

I see...
the former things shall pass away
(that would be the physical)
the kingdom is not of this world
(that would be spiritual)

I believe the resurrection is spiritual

once the soul is able to continue into the kingdom
there is no reason to come back here
( and so I have not ruled out reincarnation.....for souls needing to mature)

Kemosloby · Mar 13, 2017

moorea944 said:
This is what I see. We do not have anything immortal yet. It is a gift that we will receive at his coming. We will be raised the same person at resurrection and then receive immortality.

We might be a little different, or even a lot, but the same person. With a new name and a clean slate, and possibly knowing much more. Since it says on the judgement day all things will be revealed to us, even saying one with Christ, possibly meaning we will know what he knows.

Thief · Mar 13, 2017

Kemosloby said:
We might be a little different, or even a lot, but the same person. With a new name and a clean slate, and possibly knowing much more. Since it says on the judgement day all things will be revealed to us, even saying one with Christ, possibly meaning we will know what he knows.

know what He knows?......oh, oh.....

and it was the acquisition of knowledge that got all of this started!

moorea944 · Mar 13, 2017

Thief said:
I see...
the former things shall pass away
(that would be the physical)
the kingdom is not of this world
(that would be spiritual)

I believe the resurrection is spiritual

once the soul is able to continue into the kingdom
there is no reason to come back here
( and so I have not ruled out reincarnation.....for souls needing to mature)

I see...
the former things shall pass away
(that would be the physical)

Yes, I agree. The former way of life will end with the coming Kingdom. We have to remember that this world will change. A new king, rulership, everyone will know the Lord, new way of life, etc...

the kingdom is not of this world
(that would be spiritual)

The kingdom will not be spiritual in a way that it is not a real kingdom. The bible tells us that it will be a real kingdom "set up" by Christ and the Saints. We know that the capital will be Jerusalem and the word of God will go out of that city. We also read that all nations will go up to that city to worship the Lord. And if they dont, they will be punished.

But your right as in that the kingdom is not of this world. It is not from man but from God.

I believe the resurrection is spiritual

I dont know where you get that from.

once the soul is able to continue into the kingdom
there is no reason to come back here
( and so I have not ruled out reincarnation.....for souls needing to mature)

The soul, you mean the person? Because that is what soul means..... People will go into the kingdom. It's not talking about your spiritual soul thing.

And no reason to come back where? People dont go up, they continue to stay here on earth. And that is where the kingdom will be.
But read Dan 2 and 1 Cor 15

Thief · Mar 13, 2017

moorea944 said:
And no reason to come back where? People dont go up, they continue to stay here on earth. And that is where the kingdom will be.
But read Dan 2 and 1 Cor 15

and which direction did Jesus go?

and was that a physical body?
or just a projection of spirit?.....that His disciples would have a image to see and feel?

moorea944 · Mar 14, 2017

Thief said:
and which direction did Jesus go?

and was that a physical body?
or just a projection of spirit?.....that His disciples would have a image to see and feel?

Great point! Jesus did go up to heaven phyisically. Also the angels told them that he would come back too. And even the parables are about Jesus returning to earth. Nothing about us going up into heaven it's self. Bible tells us that Jesus comes back to earth and nothing about going back up.

In Zech, when it talks about Jesus returning, it says, "And the Lord will be King over the earth forever and ever."
I read these verses and I just don't see anything about heaven going......... sorry

Thief · Mar 14, 2017

moorea944 said:
Great point! Jesus did go up to heaven phyisically. Also the angels told them that he would come back too. And even the parables are about Jesus returning to earth. Nothing about us going up into heaven it's self. Bible tells us that Jesus comes back to earth and nothing about going back up.

In Zech, when it talks about Jesus returning, it says, "And the Lord will be King over the earth forever and ever."
I read these verses and I just don't see anything about heaven going......... sorry

...the kingdom is not of this world....

sorry

moorea944 · Mar 14, 2017

Thief said:
...the kingdom is not of this world....

sorry

Ok, question.....

So because of one verse in the entire bible your basing your beliefs on that? If so, you have to throw out the rest of the bible. Scripture tells us that it is a real kingdom and what is the purpose of it too.

So... if it's not a real kingdom, what is it then?...

Thief · Mar 15, 2017

moorea944 said:
Ok, question.....

So because of one verse in the entire bible your basing your beliefs on that? If so, you have to throw out the rest of the bible. Scripture tells us that it is a real kingdom and what is the purpose of it too.

So... if it's not a real kingdom, what is it then?...

and the spiritual kingdom.......God and heaven
is not real?

moorea944 · Mar 15, 2017

Thief said:
and the spiritual kingdom.......God and heaven
is not real?

Ok, yes, God is real and the kingdom is real. Where is this kingdom going to be, in heaven?

What happens when we die?

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