What happens to us when we die?

[Katzpur]

According to Christian belief, the Bible speaks about the promise to those who are saved that upon death, their spirits are with the Lord in heaven (I Thessalonians 4:13-18) Those who are not saved through Christ spirits would be sent to a place of torment (Luke 16:19-23). We will all be judged by God (saved and unsaved) on the day of judgement, but those who are unsaved would be cast into the lake of fire for enternity (Revelations 20:11-15).

This sounds to me as if one's ultimate destination is pretty much cast in concrete at death. Are you saying that when a person dies, he is either received into Heaven or cast into Hell, and then, at the day of judgment, this process is simply repeated? Or did I misunderstand you?

 

[Katzpur]

I agree with Steve and Blueman, those who are saved through Christ will live with God in Heaven and those who are not will go to hell.

And what about those who have never even heard of Christ?

 

[Katzpur]

Instead of going by what "the church" teaches, why not just stick with the Holy Bible and nothing else?

Sure. Why not? Other than the fact that the Bible can be (and has been) interpreted in about as many different ways as there are Christian denominations today (that would be 30,000+). Oh, and while we're at it, which Bible should we "just stick with"?

 

[joeboonda]

THE HOLY BIBLE. I prefer the King James Version, but almost any will do. Except for the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the others are quite similar. Maybe study and decide for yourself what Bible. But that is a whole subject on its own. What I am saying, and I am just making a friendly suggestion, because it helped me, is that we should go to the authority of God's word and decide for ourselves what the truth is from that alone, instead of any extra-biblical sources. And I am talking to Christians here only.

 

[joeboonda]

This sounds to me as if one's ultimate destination is pretty much cast in concrete at death. Are you saying that when a person dies, he is either received into Heaven or cast into Hell, and then, at the day of judgment, this process is simply repeated? Or did I misunderstand you?

I would like to answer, too. The Bible teaches that Christians go immediately to Heaven, at a point in time there is the Judgement Seat of Christ for believers only, to judge their works for reward purposes. Non-believers die and go immediately to Hell. And it is a kind of temporary deal in a way. Then they appear at the Great White Throne Judgement and as they had no payment for their sins as they rejected Christ's payment on the cross, they, death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. Now Christ taught of different degrees of punishment so, exactly how that works we shall see. But that is the Biblical teaching as far as I see it. PEACE!

 

[may]

THE HOLY BIBLE. I prefer the King James Version, but almost any will do. Except for the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the others are quite similar. Maybe study and decide for yourself what Bible. But that is a whole subject on its own. What I am saying, and I am just making a friendly suggestion, because it helped me, is that we should go to the authority of God's word and decide for ourselves what the truth is from that alone, instead of any extra-biblical sources. And I am talking to Christians here only.

you made me laugh with your post,before i was a JW someone said the same as you in your post, and it made me curious to find out about the New world translation printed by JW ,and i soon found out that it is a very good accurate translation and now i am a JW:clap

 

[jorylore]

What about the rich man and Lazarus? The rich man is described as being in torment in the flames and wishes for Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue, then want him to warn his five brothers of this terrible place. And Jesus called him a CERTAIN rich man, and calle Lazarus by his name, so its not just a story, it illustrates the truth of eternal suffering. Jesus warned of Hell more than he spoke of Heaven and always called it everlasting, eternal punishment. Also, He being infinite suffered a finite amount of time to pay for our sins, if we try to pay for them, being finite beings, we must suffer an infinite amount of time. Hell is forever, its sad, but its the truth. Jesus also says it will be worse for some than for others, Mathew 10:15, 11:24, Mark 6:11, Luke 10:12. It is also a place where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched, and a lake of fire. Note the antichrist and false prophet were thrown into the lake of fire, and a thousand years later Satan was, and they were still there, see the end of revelation for that one. God is Love, but he is also JUST. Very few bible theologians would agree with you that you just cease to exist, that is not at all what the Bilbe says.

You want death to be more than it is, Joeboonda, but it just isn't. Death is the opposite of life. That's it. The passing out of existence is not such a horrible fate when one considers the hope of the resurrection. This death does not have to be eternal as long as you live in God's memory. He alone can return life. As for the Rich man and Lazarus, it's just a parable. It shows the change of an approved condition that the Jews experience. Represented by the rich man, the Jews were always favored by God. Lazarus represented the christians or the despised ones. Since the Jews rejected Jesus they would be rejected by God. That was their torture. Lazarus or the christians would in turn find favor. It's not literal. As for the Lake of Fire, Rev. 20:14 tells us exactly what that is: the second death. Death, non existence. Destroyed forever, that's all it's saying. As for the eternal punishment spoke of in the gospel, it's true. But it was the punishment that was to be eternal not the actual punishing of the individual. Once they were destroyed, that was it. They were dead forever. However, for future generations, the threat of punishment will always exist for any who rebel against God.

As for the wicked, they will be destroyed at Armageddon. God's final war. Destroyed--dead forever with no hope of ever enjoying life again. That's the punishment that God layed out for Adam and Eve, and that's what's in store for the wicked today. What I don't understand is why is that not enough for people. It's not enough that the wicked will be annihilated, but some want them to torture forever and ever as well. Answer me this, how does that punishment fit the crime? Millions and millions of years of torture for 70 or 80 years on sin? It's ridiculous and would turn any truth seeker away from God.

 

[glasgowchick]

According to Christian belief, the Bible speaks about the promise to those who are saved that upon death, their spirits are with the Lord in heaven (I Thessalonians 4:13-18) Those who are not saved through Christ spirits would be sent to a place of torment (Luke 16:19-23). We will all be judged by God (saved and unsaved) on the day of judgement, but those who are unsaved would be cast into the lake of fire for enternity (Revelations 20:11-15).

Here Here!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Katzpur]

I would like to answer, too. The Bible teaches that Christians go immediately to Heaven, at a point in time there is the Judgement Seat of Christ for believers only, to judge their works for reward purposes. Non-believers die and go immediately to Hell. And it is a kind of temporary deal in a way. Then they appear at the Great White Throne Judgement and as they had no payment for their sins as they rejected Christ's payment on the cross, they, death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. Now Christ taught of different degrees of punishment so, exactly how that works we shall see. But that is the Biblical teaching as far as I see it. PEACE!

Actually, the Bible teaches that the righteous go immediately to Paradise. Jesus told the man who hung on the cross next to Him that He'd see him on that same day in Paradise. But as of Easter Morning, three days later, He told Mary He hadn't yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. So obviously, Paradise and Heaven are not one and the same.

Also, the Bible teaches that at the Last Judgement, all will stand before God to be judged (not just the wicked). That would obviously include not only the wicked, but the righteous. So are you saying that the righteous, who, according to your belief, are supposedly already in Heaven, won't be called forth at the time of the Last Judgement after all, or are you saying that they will be called forth a second time to once again be admitted to Heaven (presumably having already been admitted once immediately after their deaths)?

What do you believe will happen to the non-believers who didn't believe for no other reason than that they were never told? What about those individuals who lived at a time or in a place where Christianity was virtually unknown? Do you honestly believe that God is going to condemn them to the "Lake of Fire" for something entirely beyond their control? Is that the way you believe God operates?

 

[joeboonda]

you made me laugh with your post,before i was a JW someone said the same as you in your post, and it made me curious to find out about the New world translation printed by JW ,and i soon found out that it is a very good accurate translation and now i am a JW:clap

Argh, lost another one, lol. I just don't get why they use the word Jehovah all over the new testament when it was written in Greek, they changed it to fit their beliefs, but I am not going to argue with you, congratulations on your findings, and good luck.

 

[joeboonda]

You want death to be more than it is, Joeboonda, but it just isn't. Death is the opposite of life. That's it. The passing out of existence is not such a horrible fate when one considers the hope of the resurrection. This death does not have to be eternal as long as you live in God's memory. He alone can return life. As for the Rich man and Lazarus, it's just a parable. It shows the change of an approved condition that the Jews experience. Represented by the rich man, the Jews were always favored by God. Lazarus represented the christians or the despised ones. Since the Jews rejected Jesus they would be rejected by God. That was their torture. Lazarus or the christians would in turn find favor. It's not literal. As for the Lake of Fire, Rev. 20:14 tells us exactly what that is: the second death. Death, non existence. Destroyed forever, that's all it's saying. As for the eternal punishment spoke of in the gospel, it's true. But it was the punishment that was to be eternal not the actual punishing of the individual. Once they were destroyed, that was it. They were dead forever. However, for future generations, the threat of punishment will always exist for any who rebel against God.

As for the wicked, they will be destroyed at Armageddon. God's final war. Destroyed--dead forever with no hope of ever enjoying life again. That's the punishment that God layed out for Adam and Eve, and that's what's in store for the wicked today. What I don't understand is why is that not enough for people. It's not enough that the wicked will be annihilated, but some want them to torture forever and ever as well. Answer me this, how does that punishment fit the crime? Millions and millions of years of torture for 70 or 80 years on sin? It's ridiculous and would turn any truth seeker away from God.

Hope you are right about all that, still seems eternal to me, I won't argue, I will just agree to disagree.

 

[joeboonda]

Actually, the Bible teaches that the righteous go immediately to Paradise. Jesus told the man who hung on the cross next to Him that He'd see him on that same day in Paradise. But as of Easter Morning, three days later, He told Mary He hadn't yet ascended to His Father in Heaven. So obviously, Paradise and Heaven are not one and the same.

Also, the Bible teaches that at the Last Judgement, all will stand before God to be judged (not just the wicked). That would obviously include not only the wicked, but the righteous. So are you saying that the righteous, who, according to your belief, are supposedly already in Heaven, won't be called forth at the time of the Last Judgement after all, or are you saying that they will be called forth a second time to once again be admitted to Heaven (presumably having already been admitted once immediately after their deaths)?

What do you believe will happen to the non-believers who didn't believe for no other reason than that they were never told? What about those individuals who lived at a time or in a place where Christianity was virtually unknown? Do you honestly believe that God is going to condemn them to the "Lake of Fire" for something entirely beyond their control? Is that the way you believe God operates?

I believe Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us, that where he is, we may be also. I believe Christians go to the Judgement Seat of Chrest, but actually are judges at the Great White Throne Judgement or at least spectators. I don't wanna argue the details, so I won't. As far as people who have never heard the gospel, I don't think they can be held accountable for something they have not heard, there is something about that in Romans. Now I don't know everything, but I know that God is good, and God is just, and he will do the right thing in each individual case.
Now if you all have a little different slant on all that, that is fine. We all seem to agree that after we die we will be judged, some will inherit eternal life, and some will not. I will just keep it simple and let everyone have their own beliefs about the details. I simply try to state what I believe, I don't want to debate it. Too much of that seems to cause more harm than good. Sometimes, as Christians, when we discuss issues, we forget the most important thing, to love one another, and instead attack every little thing, and I am just saying that to everyone in general. Anyway, I ramble. PEACE!

 

[Katzpur]

I believe Jesus said he was going to prepare a place for us, that where he is, we may be also.

I believe so, too. But you didn't answer my questions.

I believe Christians go to the Judgement Seat of Chrest, but actually are judges at the Great White Throne Judgement or at least spectators.

I'm just curious, where do you get the phrase "the Great White Throne"? I've never run across it in the scriptures, though it may be there somewhere. If it is, would you mind citing chapter and verse?

I don't wanna argue the details, so I won't.

Are you sure it's that you don't want to or that you haven't the resources to do so? I can appreciate your desire not to get into heated arguments that, in the end, probably aren't going to be resolved on a debate forum. On the other hand, I am quickly losing track of how many times I have seen you state your opinion and then, as soon as someone points out the flaws in your reasoning, say something like, "I don't want to argue the details," or "I don't want to debate this," or "Let's just agree to disagree." If you don't want to debate, may I ask why you bother stating your opinion on a debate forum in the first place? If you're going to do that, you need to be willing to provide some evidence to support it, and respond to the questions directed to you -- if only to say, "I don't know." None of us have all the answers, but "I don't want to argue the details" is a pretty lame way out, in my opinion.

As far as people who have never heard the gospel, I don't think they can be held accountable for something they have not heard, there is something about that in Romans.

I believe that Jesus was quite clear in saying that He that believeth not shall be damned. How do you reconcile that with the statement you just made? (Of course, I have my own opinions on the subject. I'd just like to hear yours.)

Now I don't know everything, but I know that God is good, and God is just, and he will do the right thing in each individual case. Now if you all have a little different slant on all that, that is fine.

Actually, my slant on all that is pretty much the same as yours: God is good and He is just. I just don't believe the Bible alone clarifies how a good and just God intends to get around what He said would happen to these individuals. If we are to rely solely on the Bible for our answer to this question, we end up with a huge dilemma.

Sometimes, as Christians, when we discuss issues, we forget the most important thing, to love one another, and instead attack every little thing, and I am just saying that to everyone in general.

Boy, isn't that the truth, though?

Kathryn

 

[Melody]

Well if my husband has his way, and I go first, I'm going to be cremated and have my ashes spread over the garden....just like his first wife. Beyond that...only God knows for sure.

 

[glasgowchick]

The Bible is clear on the subject. When we die w return to dust from which are first father was created. "For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Gen. 3:19) We are not conscience of anything. (Ec 9:5,10) This is not hard to believe when you look at the fact that when Jesus was on earth he likened death to sleep which is a state of unconsciousness. (Jo 11:11-14) You rest in the grave until the resurrection, some to heaven others to a cleansed earth. (Jo 5:29; Rev.14:1-6; Rev. 20:4-6; Ps 37:9-10; Ma 5:5) No one tortures in a fiery inferno for their sin. Such a belief is not only antibiblical but also cruel and unnecessary. The price we pay for sin is death- the absence of life, plain and simple. (Ro 6:23)

Hi Jorylore
I believe that what you have writen is the true state of our fleshly bodies, but I believe that our Spirit returns to God...Ecc 12:7

 

[michel]

Hi Jorylore
I believe that what you have writen is the true state of our fleshly bodies, but I believe that our Spirit returns to God...Ecc 12:7

Too right; well said.

 

[Aqualung]

Are you sure it's that you don't want to or that you haven't the resources to do so? I can appreciate your desire not to get into heated arguments that, in the end, probably aren't going to be resolved on a debate forum. On the other hand, I am quickly losing track of how many times I have seen you state your opinion and then, as soon as someone points out the flaws in your reasoning, say something like, "I don't want to argue the details," or "I don't want to debate this," or "Let's just agree to disagree." If you don't want to debate, may I ask why you bother stating your opinion on a debate forum in the first place? If you're going to do that, you need to be willing to provide some evidence to support it, and respond to the questions directed to you -- if only to say, "I don't know." None of us have all the answers, but "I don't want to argue the details" is a pretty lame way out, in my opinion.

Nice job Katzpur. I was thinking things along those lines, but I can't say them without adding downright mean things. I always have admired that about you.

And I tend to agree with what glasgowchick just mentioned.

 

[Ceridwen018]

I once read a very interesting short story...can't recall the name or the author...but it was about a man who died, and suddenly found himself in a courtroom sitting before human judges. God was in the courtroom as well, but he was merely there as a spectator. The dead man sat on trial before his fellow men who eventually sentenced him to hell after having listed his deeds and misdeeds and weighing each. On his way out the door, the dead man questioned a passerbye as to why he hadn't been judged by the Lord himself. The passerbye answered him that God was not fit to judge us, because he was all knowing, loving, forgiving and perfectly compassionate. God saw the bad things that the man had done, yet he also understood why the man had done them and sympathized with him. If God were the judge, everyone would get into heaven.

 

[Katzpur]

Nice job Katzpur. I was thinking things along those lines, but I can't say them without adding downright mean things. I always have admired that about you.

Thanks, Aqualung. I really needed that compliment -- today especially. I just got scolded for being mean to someone. So, unfortunately, I'm not always as nice as I should be.

(By the way, I haven't forgotten that I still need to PM you some information about a question you asked. I haven't found "the quote", but I will.)

 

[Katzpur]

I once read a very interesting short story...can't recall the name or the author...but it was about a man who died, and suddenly found himself in a courtroom sitting before human judges. God was in the courtroom as well, but he was merely there as a spectator. The dead man sat on trial before his fellow men who eventually sentenced him to hell after having listed his deeds and misdeeds and weighing each. On his way out the door, the dead man questioned a passerbye as to why he hadn't been judged by the Lord himself. The passerbye answered him that God was not fit to judge us, because he was all knowing, loving, forgiving and perfectly compassionate. God saw the bad things that the man had done, yet he also understood why the man had done them and sympathized with him. If God were the judge, everyone would get into heaven.

Wow! That's kind of cool! I'm not sure everyone would get into heaven, but I'd be willing to bet that God's going to be a whole lot more merciful to us than we are to each other.