What happened to the non-Muslims in Arabia?

[TagliatelliMonster]

Muslims don't want to turn Mecca into a tourist destination again like it was in the time of the ignorance.. as I explained 3 posts earlier.

Because they don't have muslim tourists there?

You spend a lot of time in Turkey and Saudi Arabia, did you?

I went to Istanbul, Turkey a few times. Mainly to purchase awesome hand made traditional cymbals for my drumkit. It's the place to be when looking for grandmaster cymbal smids. The tradition goes back 5-600 years. And since I was there, I visited all kinds of places. Like the Blue Mosque, the Topkapi Palace (which holds quite a few holy islamic artefacts in a room where scholars are reading/singing from the quran 24/7. stuff like hairs supposedly from Mohammed's beard etc), the Agia Sofia etc.

I never went to SA. Nore would I want to - I have principles.

 

[Pastek]

Do you know why it is restricted?

This is not a touristic attraction, those are places for pilgrimage.
There's pilgrimage all the time so can you imagine the muslims+the tourists in the same place ?

During the Hajj there's around 2 millions people at that time, a big crowd and they say more and more people want to come. There's have been restriction for some people (quota/countries, limitation of 5 years for those who have already been in Hajj).
Maybe you've heard about the stampede 4 years ago and the 2,000 dead.

And the other part of the year it's the Little Hajj called 'Omra, you can do it whenever you want so there's always people doing it.
The 'Omra during the month of Ramadan there's also many many people.
There's so much people coming that they are still constructing new hotels.
They even enlarged the mosque El Haram (sacred mosque of Mecca)
Last year a crane killed around 100 people because of the bad weather .

Medina is not part of the pilgrimage but everyone one include the city so they can salute and pray in the mosque of the prophet (masjad el nabawi) where there's also the tomb of Omar (caliph) and Abu Bakar (1rst caliph and Aicha's father).
There's also the tombs of many others like Hamza (Prophet's uncle buried in the battle field at Munt Uhud-Medina) so people go and visit those important places. So there's really many people in those places.

 

[sooda]

Because they don't have muslim tourists there?



I went to Istanbul, Turkey a few times. Mainly to purchase awesome hand made traditional cymbals for my drumkit. It's the place to be when looking for grandmaster cymbal smids. The tradition goes back 5-600 years. And since I was there, I visited all kinds of places. Like the Blue Mosque, the Topkapi Palace (which holds quite a few holy islamic artefacts in a room where scholars are reading/singing from the quran 24/7. stuff like hairs supposedly from Mohammed's beard etc), the Agia Sofia etc.

I never went to SA. Nore would I want to - I have principles.

Oh .. you are trying to be insulting..

I don't know how you can compare Lebanon to Libya or Damascus to Kuwait.

Religious pilgrims make the Haj.. Tourism is thriving in Arabia since 2000.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Oh .. you are trying to be insulting..

Not at all.
I'm just being honest.

I think there is something fundamentally wrong and immoral with countries where there is segregation based on religious beliefs, where human rights are violated every day, etc etc. And let's not forget the extreme form of fundamentalist Islam that the Saudi's are actively spreading around the world and are spending billions of dollars on just that.

Out of principle, I wouldn't want to visit such countries.
Note that that is not the same as saying that there aren't any nice people living there.

 

[Augustus]

In Arabia?

In the empire.

In Arabia? There weren't many Christians.. There were some Nestorians at Taruth Island and in Najran. Christians would have considered them heretics.

In the North/East there were the Ghassanids and Lakhmids. Were quite a few in the South too, as there was significant fighting in the 6th Century when the Persian backed Jewish Himyarites and the Roman backed Christian Axum (including Abraha who even made it into Islamic 'history' despite being a few decades too early).

 

[sooda]

Not at all.
I'm just being honest.

I think there is something fundamentally wrong and immoral with countries where there is segregation based on religious beliefs, where human rights are violated every day, etc etc. And let's not forget the extreme form of fundamentalist Islam that the Saudi's are actively spreading around the world and are spending billions of dollars on just that.

Out of principle, I wouldn't want to visit such countries.
Note that that is not the same as saying that there aren't any nice people living there.

I see you have bought into the Wahhabi Myth.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I see you have bought into the Wahhabi Myth.

What myth?

I know for a fact that extremist imam's, paid by SA, go abroad and preach extremist Islam.
I know this for a fact. It's not a myth.
He preached at the great mosque in Brussels.
I saw him. We know where he comes from. We know who pays him.

And he's not the only one. You can find them in loads of countries.

 

[sooda]

What myth?

I know for a fact that extremist imam's, paid by SA, go abroad and preach extremist Islam.
I know this for a fact. It's not a myth.
He preached at the great mosque in Brussels.
I saw him. We know where he comes from. We know who pays him.

And he's not the only one. You can find them in loads of countries.

Its not true. Fahd was VERY pro-American like Abdullah and Salman built mosques for existing Muslim congregations as his legacy. They didn't employ Imams.

The Wahhabis are purists.. Think Calvinists.. They have simplified Islam.. The reason was twofold. 1. To get rid of the innovations introduced by the Ottoman Turks and 2. to get the Turks off the Arabian Peninsula.

They are modest, family oriented and conservative.. They are NOT militant or Nationalistic. In the West you have a lot of jackasses calling themselves Wahhabi who are not.

Saudi Arabia was never a colony so they have a very different mindset than say.. Iran, Iraq, Syria ..

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Its not true. Fahd was VERY pro-American like Abdullah and Salman built mosques for existing Muslim congregations as his legacy. They didn't employ Imams.

The Wahhabis are purists.. Think Calvinists.. They have simplified Islam.. The reason was twofold. 1. To get rid of the innovations introduced by the Ottoman Turks and 2. to get the Turks off the Arabian Peninsula.

They are modest, family oriented and conservative.. They are NOT militant or Nationalistic. In the West you have a lot of jackasses calling themselves Wahhabi who are not.

Saudi Arabia was never a colony so they have a very different mindset than say.. Iran, Iraq, Syria ..

Dude....
You can't argue with the stone cold facts.

It is well known and well documented that there's near bottomless funding coming from SA to spread an extremist version of Islam around the world. No matter what the royals say in public.

International propagation of Salafism and Wahhabism - Wikipedia


One estimate is that during the reign of King Fahd (1982 to 2005), over $75 billion was spent in efforts to spread Wahhabi Islam. The money was used to establish 200 Islamic colleges, 210 Islamic centers, 1,500 mosques, and 2,000 schools for Muslim children in Muslim and non-Muslim majority countries.[8][9] The schools were "fundamentalist" in outlook and formed a network "from Sudan to northern Pakistan".[10] The late king also launched a publishing center in Medina that by 2000 had distributed 138 million copies of the Quran (the central religious text of Islam) worldwide. [11] Along with the millions of Qurans distributed free of charge came doctrinal texts following the Wahhabi interpretation.[12]

 

[sooda]

Dude....
You can't argue with the stone cold facts.

It is well known and well documented that there's near bottomless funding coming from SA to spread an extremist version of Islam around the world. No matter what the royals say in public.

International propagation of Salafism and Wahhabism - Wikipedia


One estimate is that during the reign of King Fahd (1982 to 2005), over $75 billion was spent in efforts to spread Wahhabi Islam. The money was used to establish 200 Islamic colleges, 210 Islamic centers, 1,500 mosques, and 2,000 schools for Muslim children in Muslim and non-Muslim majority countries.[8][9] The schools were "fundamentalist" in outlook and formed a network "from Sudan to northern Pakistan".[10] The late king also launched a publishing center in Medina that by 2000 had distributed 138 million copies of the Quran (the central religious text of Islam) worldwide. [11] Along with the millions of Qurans distributed free of charge came doctrinal texts following the Wahhabi interpretation.[12]

I know Saudi Arabia and Fahd, Abdullah and Salman better than any of your sources. 20 years ago the SAG implemented ways to prevent private or public financial support of terrorism.

There is no such thing as a Wahhabi Koran.

I am not a "dude".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I know Saudi Arabia and Fahd, Abdullah and Salman better than any of your sources.

In other words: you don't believe the well documented facts.
That's your choice of course, but it won't make the facts go away.

20 years ago the SAG implemented ways to prevent private or public financial support of terrorism.

I'm not talking about terrorism. I'm talking about funding the spread of an extremist version of Islam.
Muslim terrorists are usually extremists, but not every extremist is a terrorist.

There is no such thing as a Wahhabi Koran.

Last sentence of the paragraphe I quote from the wiki article:

Along with the millions of Qurans distributed free of charge came doctrinal texts following the Wahhabi interpretation.[12]

Further down in the article you can also read about how they send "religious attaches" to all 70+ embassies around the world:

In the 1980s the Kingdom's approximately 70 embassies around the world were equipped with religious attaches whose job it was to get new mosques built in their countries and to persuade existing mosques to propagate the dawah wahhabiya". [13]


You seem to be blind to all these well documented facts.

 

[sooda]

In other words: you don't believe the well documented facts.
That's your choice of course, but it won't make the facts go away.



I'm not talking about terrorism. I'm talking about funding the spread of an extremist version of Islam.
Muslim terrorists are usually extremists, but not every extremist is a terrorist.



Last sentence of the paragraphe I quote from the wiki article:

Along with the millions of Qurans distributed free of charge came doctrinal texts following the Wahhabi interpretation.[12]

Further down in the article you can also read about how they send "religious attaches" to all 70+ embassies around the world:

In the 1980s the Kingdom's approximately 70 embassies around the world were equipped with religious attaches whose job it was to get new mosques built in their countries and to persuade existing mosques to propagate the dawah wahhabiya". [13]


You seem to be blind to all these well documented facts.

Wahhabis aren't extremists. Look to nationalists for that. They aren't well documented.. These writers quote each other and have never been to the kingdom or their "expertise" is a week-end.

 

[BilliardsBall]

My issue with being an Omnist is that I don't know what happened to the non-Muslims in Arabia when Islam was established. If they were forced to convert then how can I say all religions are a path to God if the Muslims clearly didn't think so?

Well, they were converted by force, by sword, like most of today's Muslim countries were "converted" historically.

 

[Augustus]

Well, they were converted by force, by sword, l

No they weren't.

 

[sooda]

Well, they were converted by force, by sword, like most of today's Muslim countries were "converted" historically.

Nope.. Most were converted because they had a thousand years of trade and commerce before Islam.. which included intermarriage.

The trade routes existed long before Genesis...

 

[sooda]

 

[2ndpillar]

Its not true. Fahd was VERY pro-American like Abdullah and Salman built mosques for existing Muslim congregations as his legacy. They didn't employ Imams.

The Wahhabis are purists.. Think Calvinists.. They have simplified Islam.. The reason was twofold. 1. To get rid of the innovations introduced by the Ottoman Turks and 2. to get the Turks off the Arabian Peninsula.

They are modest, family oriented and conservative.. They are NOT militant or Nationalistic. In the West you have a lot of jackasses calling themselves Wahhabi who are not.

Saudi Arabia was never a colony so they have a very different mindset than say.. Iran, Iraq, Syria ..

It was the petroleum dollars which financed the Wahhabis around the world, and they are considered terrorist, such as inspiring ISIL. When I think of Calvinist, I think of the Puritans dunking witches. See following from wikipedia:

The alliance between followers of ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Muhammad bin Saud's successors (the House of Saud) proved to be a durable one. The House of Saud continued to maintain its politico-religious alliance with the Wahhabi sect through the waxing and waning of its own political fortunes over the next 150 years, through to its eventual proclamation of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932, and then afterwards, on into modern times. Today Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab's teachings are the official, state-sponsored form of Sunni Islam[2][19] in Saudi Arabia.[20] With the help of funding from Saudi petroleum exports[21] (and other factors[22]), the movement underwent "explosive growth" beginning in the 1970s and now has worldwide influence.[2] The US State Department has estimated that over the past four decades concerns in Riyadh (a global city) have directed at least $10bn (£6bn) to select charitable foundations toward the subversion of mainstream Sunni Islam by the harsh intolerance of Wahhabism.[23] (as of 2017 changes to Saudi religious policy by Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman have led some to suggest that "Islamists throughout the world will have to follow suit or risk winding up on the wrong side of orthodoxy".[24])

The "boundaries" of Wahhabism have been called "difficult to pinpoint",[25] but in contemporary usage, the terms Wahhabi and Salafi are often used interchangeably, and they are considered to be movements with different roots that have merged since the 1960s.[26][27][28] However, Wahhabism has also been called "a particular orientation within Salafism",[29] or an ultra-conservative, Saudi brand of Salafism.[30][31] Estimates of the number of adherents to Wahhabism vary, with one source (Mehrdad Izady) giving a figure of fewer than 5 million Wahhabis in the Persian Gulf region (compared to 28.5 million Sunnis and 89 million Shia).[20][32]

The majority of Sunni and Shia Muslims worldwide disagree with the interpretation of Wahhabism, and many Muslims denounce them as a faction or a "vile sect".[7] Islamic scholars, including those from the Al-Azhar University, regularly denounce Wahhabism with terms such as "Satanic faith".[33] Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",[34][35] inspiring the ideology of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL),[36] and for causing disunity in Muslim communities by labelling Muslims who disagreed with the Wahhabi definition of monotheism as apostates[37] (takfir) and justifying their killing.[38][39][40] It has also been criticized for the destruction of historic shrines of saints, mausoleums, and other Muslim and non-Muslim buildings and artifacts.[41][42][43]

 

[sooda]

It was the petroleum dollars which financed the Wahhabis around the world, and they are considered terrorist, such as inspiring ISIL. When I think of Calvinist, I think of the Puritans dunking witches. See following from wikipedia:

The alliance between followers of ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Muhammad bin Saud's successors (the House of Saud) proved to be a durable one. The House of Saud continued to maintain its politico-religious alliance with the Wahhabi sect through the waxing and waning of its own political fortunes over the next 150 years, through to its eventual proclamation of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932, and then afterwards, on into modern times. Today Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab's teachings are the official, state-sponsored form of Sunni Islam[2][19] in Saudi Arabia.[20] With the help of funding from Saudi petroleum exports[21] (and other factors[22]), the movement underwent "explosive growth" beginning in the 1970s and now has worldwide influence.[2] The US State Department has estimated that over the past four decades concerns in Riyadh (a global city) have directed at least $10bn (£6bn) to select charitable foundations toward the subversion of mainstream Sunni Islam by the harsh intolerance of Wahhabism.[23] (as of 2017 changes to Saudi religious policy by Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman have led some to suggest that "Islamists throughout the world will have to follow suit or risk winding up on the wrong side of orthodoxy".[24])

The "boundaries" of Wahhabism have been called "difficult to pinpoint",[25] but in contemporary usage, the terms Wahhabi and Salafi are often used interchangeably, and they are considered to be movements with different roots that have merged since the 1960s.[26][27][28] However, Wahhabism has also been called "a particular orientation within Salafism",[29] or an ultra-conservative, Saudi brand of Salafism.[30][31] Estimates of the number of adherents to Wahhabism vary, with one source (Mehrdad Izady) giving a figure of fewer than 5 million Wahhabis in the Persian Gulf region (compared to 28.5 million Sunnis and 89 million Shia).[20][32]

The majority of Sunni and Shia Muslims worldwide disagree with the interpretation of Wahhabism, and many Muslims denounce them as a faction or a "vile sect".[7] Islamic scholars, including those from the Al-Azhar University, regularly denounce Wahhabism with terms such as "Satanic faith".[33] Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",[34][35] inspiring the ideology of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL),[36] and for causing disunity in Muslim communities by labelling Muslims who disagreed with the Wahhabi definition of monotheism as apostates[37] (takfir) and justifying their killing.[38][39][40] It has also been criticized for the destruction of historic shrines of saints, mausoleums, and other Muslim and non-Muslim buildings and artifacts.[41][42][43]

Pretty ignorant stuff. Muslim Brotherhood is always damning the Wahhabis. They are anti Western and wanted to form a caliphate and control Saudi oil revenues.

You might ask some of the 40,000 Americans who live and work in Arabia instead of believing a lot of propaganda.

Never mind.. You don't even examine the Bible.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

An apostate is a traitor.. Apostate is a label tacked on a criminal conviction.. It means the person has committed a crime serious enough to betray the community and the faith.

Like renouncing Islam and then proselytizing Christianity...

Christians are People of the Book and the Arabs were only too happy to help manage the camels, donkeys and sheep for our living creche and passion play.

Right...but you mentioned expat Christians, right? My point has nothing to do with expats, but only ex-Muslims, and KSA citizens.

 

[Shad]

I have never known an American who wanted to go to Mecca or Medina.. and there are 40,000 currently living in the kingdom.

Obviously Americans that are Muslim will want to go for Hajj. I would like to see it as a non-Muslim as I have an interest in history thus historical sites.