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Featured What happened to Elijah according to Quran vs Bible?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    "Heaven" in the Bible has a few different meanings.....there are the physical heavens (what we see when we look up on a clear day or night) encompassing what we see just with physical eyes.

    Then there is heaven where birds fly, within earth's atmosphere.
    There is also what is beyond our atmosphere and on into outer space.

    But then there is "Heaven" where God and his spirit sons dwell......not a physical place at all.

    Since I have no belief in an immortal soul or going to heaven or hell when I die, I would never refer to my father in heaven unless it was Jehovah. My father is sleeping in death as the Bible states.

    Elijah was carried off within the earth's atmosphere and transported to another location, as he wrote a letter to the King of Judah some 5 years later. I don't believe that the Bible says when or how Elijah died.
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Did it ever occur to you why God's spirit sons are called angels?
    What was Gabriel? What is Michael? There is rank and order in the heavenly realm and until Jesus returned to heaven, no human had ever been there. John knew what he was talking about I think....better than you or me.

    Those who spoke to Abraham were materialised angels. One presented himself as God's spokesman, likely the Logos before his earthly mission.

    Since no one saw Elijah leave but Elisha, it was confirmation that he was now Elijah's successor. The Bible itself confirms that Elijah's letter to the King of Judah was written 5 years after his chariot ride into the sky. You don't like the Bible much, do you?

    My house is fine thanks....not so sure about yours though. Perhaps you'd better sure up your own foundations before you pick faults in anyone else's. :rolleyes:
     
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    And since when have angels been "anointed"? (Zechariah 4:14) "These are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth". How is the Lord of the whole earth also "two anointed ones"? Your foundation of "sand", laid by the daughters of Babylon, is nothing you can successfully build on. Using the JW traditions of men, will not be able to save your house, which will be swept away by the floods (Matthew 7:23-27). You have apparently rejected (Hebrews 8:13) the "tested stone" for "your covenant with death" (Isaiah 28:16:18), which "will not stand".

    If the "son of man" has descended from heaven" (John 3:13), how and when did he get into heaven to "descend", if you must first descend to ascend? And who are the "two anointed" that "are standing by the Lord of the whole earth"? And who is the Lord of the whole earth? And who is the "LORD of hosts" (Zechariah 4:6)? And who is the "word of the LORD" (Zechariah 4:8), "who came to me"? And who is "Zerubbabel" who "has laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it"? And who is "Joshua/Yeshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD"? (Zechariah 3:1) who will "walk in my ways"? And who is "My Servant the Branch/shoot/sprout" (Zechariah 3:8)? And who are the "friends" of "Joshua", who are "men who are a symbol" ?(Zechariah 11:8)? And when is "in that day" (Zechariah 3:10)? And who is the "angel of the LORD" (Zechariah 3:1)? And what land is having it's iniquity removed (Zechariah 3:9)? And who is Zion, who must "escape" from "living with the daughters of Babylon"? (Zechariah 2:7)? And what nations are being "plundered" by their "slaves" (Zechariah 2:9).
     
    #23 2ndpillar, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  4. Remté

    Remté Active Member

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    Where?
     
  5. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The bible simply states: "a letter came to him from Elijah". 2 Chronicles was about Jehoram, the son of Jehoshaphat, who ruled 8 years, which followed the time of Ahaziah (2 Kings 1:18). The going up in the whirlwind also followed the time of Ahaziah (2 Kings 2:2). The two events followed the death of Ahaziah, and were not concurrent. If as if as you say, Elijah is dead, and the dead "know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5), how is it that John the Baptist, who is Elijah (Matthew 11:14), could speak?

    Matthew 11:14
    And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

    New American Standard Bible 2 Chronicles 21:12
    Then a letter came to him from Elijah the prophet saying, "Thus says the LORD God of your father David, 'Because you have not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat your father and the ways of Asa king of Judah,
     
  6. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You had the angel of the LORD, and his two pals, who destroyed Sodom. Is the "Logos" a "materialized angel", or a son of man, the "Word made flesh", who was to be the "Lord of the whole earth", with "two anointed ones who are standing by"? (Zechariah 4:14). Who are the "two anointed" who stand by the "Lord of the whole earth"? Are angels "anointed"? Is Elijah known for having fire come down to kill his enemies? Are the two messengers of Revelation 11:5 known to use fire to kill their enemies. Was Elijah able to shut up the heavens for 42 months. Were the "messengers" able to do the same (Revelation 11:6). Is Elijah, one of the messengers, able to come back to life after 3 days and a half (Revelation 11:9)? John apparently didn't say what you thought he said. How did the "son of man" ascend to heaven, in order to be able descend from heaven, in order to ascend to heaven?
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Ezekiel 28: 13-14 is addressed to the King of Tyre, but is a clear reference to satan as an "anointed cherub"....
    "13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God.....
    14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.
    You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones."


    Cherubs are angels of high rank, "anointed" for their assignment.

    What does it mean to be anointed? It simply means to be divinely appointed to a position or task.

    Revelation 11:3-4..."I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.

    Why are there two witnesses? Jesus answers.....

    "13 So the Pharisees said to him: “You bear witness about yourself; your witness is not true.” 14 In answer Jesus said to them: “Even if I do bear witness about myself, my witness is true, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I do not judge any man at all. 16 And yet even if I do judge, my judgment is truthful, because I am not alone, but the Father who sent me is with me. 17 Also, in your own Law it is written: ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18 I am one who bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”" (John 8:13-18)

    The fact that there were two witnesses confirms that their message was accurate and well founded. (Compare Deuteronomy 17:6; John 8:17, 18.) Jesus applied that scripture to himself and his Father.

    John calls them “the two olive trees and the two lampstands,” saying that they “are standing before the Lord of the earth.” This evident reference to the prophecy of Zechariah, who saw a seven-branched lampstand and two olive trees......the olive trees were said to picture “the two anointed ones,” that is, Governor Zerubbabel and High Priest Joshua, “standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.”—Zechariah 4:1-3, 14.

    Why do yo assume that these "two witnesses" are Enoch and Elijah, since they are never mentioned?

    The Logos is, and always has been, Jehovah's spokesman. He is the first and only creation of his God and Father. (Colossians 1:15-17; Revelation 3:14) He is an angel, but not just any angel. He is the Archangel, Michael. He was sent to earth by his Father to rescue Adam's children, redeeming them from slavery to sin and death, imposed on them by Adam's disobedience.

    After successfully completing his mission, he returned to heaven to resume his former position. After his return, he still addresses his Father as "my God" (Revelation 3:12)

    In fulfilment of Malachi 4:5 one who was to come with the spirit of Elijah was sent to prepare the way for the Messiah. John was not literally Elijah, (who was long dead) but performed a similar role. John denied being Elijah. (John 1:19-21)

    Luke 1:15-17..."15 for he will be great in the sight of Jehovah. But he must drink no wine or any alcoholic drink at all, and he will be filled with holy spirit even from before birth, 16 and he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to Jehovah their God. 17 Also, he will go ahead of him with E·liʹjah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, in order to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.”

    Your interpretation of scripture seems to be in error. Who is your teacher? Don't tell me...let me guess...?
     
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  8. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I put a hint, in anothrr thread for you ;)
     
  9. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    If you are saying "Governor Zerubbabel and Joshua/Yeshua the High Priest" are the two anointed standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth, who is in heaven, how did your "governor Zerubbabel" and "High Priest Joshua" get into heaven? And who is the "Lord of the whole earth"? And if governor Zerubbabel is dead, how is he going to "finish it" (house)? What "house" and when and how is he going to "finish it"?
     
    #29 2ndpillar, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    If Elijah is dead, and the "dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) how can Elijah's spirit help John the Baptist? Does not the spirit of the dead return to God? Did John the Baptist "turn back the hearts of the fathers to the children"? Or did "I come and smite the land with a curse" (Malachi 4:6)? If John, from before birth, was filled with the Holy Spirit, did he sin? If John the Baptist was filled with the "Holy Spirit", what need does he have with the spirit of Elijah. Was Elijah filled with the spirit of Elijah, or was his spirit, the Spirit and power of God?
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Your questions here show how little you know about prophesy. These two were in the first fulfillment of the prophesy, picturing those to follow, mentioned in Revelation....long after the death of Christ. Neither of those men went to heaven, but fulfilled a prophetic role in their own time.

    The "two witnesses" in Revelation were going to "prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth."
    These picture God's servants in our day, since the Revelation was written to take place the "Lord's Day"....the time we are in right now.

    In the first fulfillment, it was Jehovah since the Messiah had not yet come.....but in our day, "the Lord of all the Earth" could be Jehovah's representative, the "Lord Jesus Christ" as King of God's Kingdom.

    God's Temple in Jerusalem was the center of Jehovah's worship. The first Temple (after the Tabernacle) was built at God's instruction, but allowed to be destroyed and rebuilt, just as God said it would......the second temple was also destroyed by the Romans, but no third Temple has ever been rebuilt at God's command....why? Because the real Temple (pictured by the earthly one) is in heaven and the priesthood who will serve there have been specially chosen by God and anointed for that assignment. Like Jesus (the High Priest) they have been anointed to serve as 'kings and priests' in heaven for the duration of its 1,000 year reign. (Revelation 20:6)

    After the King and his co-rulers have guided redeemed mankind back to a reconciliation with their Creator, only then (at the end of the 1,000 years) will direct rulership return to Jehovah, such as Adam and his wife first enjoyed in Eden.

    "Next, the end, when he [Christ] hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. . . . then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.” (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)

    This is how we understand prophesy.

    The Kingdom will have accomplished what God sent it to do, and all will go back to way it was in the beginning. Precedents will be set so that rebellion will never rear its ugly head again.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Elijah had nothing to do with John the Baptist except as a role model. As Luke said, he was to have Elijah's spirit....the same love for God and the same zeal for his assignment as Elijah had.

    Elijah still sleeps along with all the other pre-Christian servants of God. None of them were taken into the new covenant but will be assigned their roles in the earthly realm of God's Kingdom, having proved faithful to death.

    Yes...the "spirit" (breath) not the "soul". Neither are said to be spirit entities that float about in the ether of who reside with God. The "spirit" returns to God" in that he is the only one who can restore life to a soul. A soul cannot exist without breath.
    The Bible's formula for life is simple.....a body + breath = a soul.

    John’s message would move some fathers to repent, changing their hard hearts into humble, teachable hearts, like those of obedient children. Some would become children of God. Malachi similarly foretold that the hearts of sons would turn back to fathers, meaning that repentant men would become more like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, their faithful forefathers.

    Being filled with holy spirit did not make humans sinless. Whilst ever they resided in imperfect flesh, sin would remain.

    John manifested Elijah's spirit....Elijah left him a role model. John never met Elijah, but he will in "the new earth".
    John died before Jesus opened the way into heaven, so he will be resurrected along with all the other faithful ones of old.

    John was not a Christian.....he was a Jew, just like his cousin, Jesus.

    Since it is clearly stated that John was empowered by means of Jehovah's spirit from birth, then "the spirit of Elijah" was an attitude that was first demonstrated by that ancient prophet. You seem to think that it involves a living person in spirit form.....it doesn't. The only living spirits who were formerly humans are those chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom. All the rest sleep in death, awaiting the resurrection. (John 5:28-29)
     
    #32 Deeje, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  13. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Did it work for the "vipers" of Matthew 3:7, who confessed their sins and repented, or was there more required? Was the "land" smitten by a "curse"? (Malachi 4:6)
     
    #33 2ndpillar, Feb 23, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  14. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    John 5:28-29 is with respect to a "resurrection of life", such as the "souls" of the beheaded "came to life" (Revelation 20:4) as souls, which would be the combination of body (dust) and the spirit (breath of life), and not as "living spirits". An example being the "whole house of Israel" which will come out of their graves and be given the breath of life, "My Spirit within you". (Ezekiel 37:13-14)
     
  15. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Elijah walked with God, and raised the dead, and stopped the heavens from rain, and as a righteous man (James 5:16-17), could heal the sick, and he had the Spirit of God. Was the Law written on his heart, as per the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:33, and as per the circumcision of the heart, taught by Moses? Can you claim as much, being a follower of the false prophet Paul, and being without such powers? As for the "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31, that is for the "house of Judah" and the "house of Israel", and is destined for "at that time" when " I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people" (Jeremiah 31:1), which will be with respect to the millennium, when the "stick" of Ephraim (house of Israel), will be combined with the "stick" of Judah, and they will live on the "land I gave to Jacob" (Ezekiel 37:24-25). The "two anointed", the "two olive trees" (Zechariah 11:12 & Revelation 11:4) are the same. If Zerubbabel is dead, how does "his hands" "finish it", the "house"? Does the "Lord of the whole earth" have an angel? Does Yeshua have "His angel" (Revelation 1:1)? Do the "two anointed ones" (Zechariah 4:14) have their angels? Do the little children have their angels standing in front of God (Matthew 18:10)? You seemed confused about the role of angels and demons, and their interaction with the sons of men.

    New American Standard Bible (Matthew 18:10)
    "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I think churches think they were taken to Heaven but in reality were taken to heaven (The stars).
     
    #36 Muffled, Feb 23, 2019
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  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe he was picked up by a fiery chariot. I believe fiery chariot is a description of a space craft. Usually the way alien abductions are described the person is lifted off the earth into the craft.
     
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  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I find it hard to believe Muhammad and Ali have anything worth witnessing about at the end times. There is a lot of speculation but the witnesses are not named. Maybe the names are withheld to protect the innocent.
     
  19. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    Interesting thought. Do you mean this as being Christ before his earthly birth?
     
  20. David1967

    David1967 Well-Known Member
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    Please, no hints. I would like a verse in Quran so I can look it up. Thanks
     
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