What good is believing that meditation leads to Enlightenment?

[duvduv]

It seems that the bottom line is that Enlightenment depends only on personal effort alone in relation to karma and rebirth, which sounds pretty anxiety provoking, considering how long and how many times a person needs to live.

There is no empirical data related to attainment of enlightenment among all people practicing various forms of meditation..

Plus, there is the gnawing question as to how one can be sure one is following the path set by Gautama Siddhartha or even Sanatana Dharma, since there are many competing claims for authentic teachings in both.

 

[Ponder This]

Maybe there is no good in believing that meditation leads to enlightenment.
Some people fall asleep during mediation anyways. Maybe sleep leads to enlightenment.

...a little while later...

"I'm awake!"

 

[metis]

It seems that the bottom line is that Enlightenment depends only on personal effort alone in relation to karma and rebirth, which sounds pretty anxiety provoking, considering how long and how many times a person needs to live.

There is no empirical data related to attainment of enlightenment among all people practicing various forms of meditation..

Plus, there is the gnawing question as to how one can be sure one is following the path set by Gautama Siddhartha or even Sanatana Dharma, since there are many competing claims for authentic teachings in both.

In Buddhism, one does not have to blindly believe in any specific teaching if one feels that it is not supported by evidence or is illogical.

 

[Kirran]

What good is believing anything?

 

[metis]

What good is believing anything?

As a sense of direction.

 

[Kirran]

As a sense of direction.

Well, I'm with you, yes.

 

[Fool]

It seems that the bottom line is that Enlightenment depends only on personal effort alone in relation to karma and rebirth, which sounds pretty anxiety provoking, considering how long and how many times a person needs to live.

There is no empirical data related to attainment of enlightenment among all people practicing various forms of meditation..

Plus, there is the gnawing question as to how one can be sure one is following the path set by Gautama Siddhartha or even Sanatana Dharma, since there are many competing claims for authentic teachings in both.

gautama siddhartha realized santaana dharma through meditation.

lin-chi did too as did muhammed in his cave


isaac was meditating when he met rachel


meditating leads to the realization of the law, dharma

the path is inward

 

[Jedster]

gautama siddhartha realized santaana dharma through meditation.

lin-chi did too as did muhammed in his cave


isaac was meditating when he met rachel


meditating leads to the realization of the law, dharma

the path is inward

Yes.
Taking a ride back inside is most revealing.

 

[PureX]

Lots of things CAN lead to enlightenment. But none of them are guaranteed.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It seems that the bottom line is that Enlightenment depends only on personal effort alone in relation to karma and rebirth, which sounds pretty anxiety provoking, considering how long and how many times a person needs to live.

There is no empirical data related to attainment of enlightenment among all people practicing various forms of meditation..

Plus, there is the gnawing question as to how one can be sure one is following the path set by Gautama Siddhartha or even Sanatana Dharma, since there are many competing claims for authentic teachings in both.

Enlightenment is when you understand the ful nature of life and death. Once you have that, you no longer reborn. You die.

Probably the reason why people who may be enlightened don't say anything because that would be an attachment. Maybe if the idea is to spread The Dharma but monks do that and they aren't enlightened. Takes a lot or rebirths to get there and The Buddha says there's no point in asking. That's not important.

As for data, it's not abrahamics. Data is in the practice, deeds, and understanding. It's self cultivation of the mind to where "proof" is not in a book or outside party but something you practice and receive guidance when lost not shown the way of the lost. No blind and now I see type of thing.

As for being sure one follows the right path really depends on the lineage and how one practices. I'm not familiar with Sanatana Dharma but The Dharma The Buddha taught is self knowledge. If one is going into monastic tradition, yes the right path is the rules one follows in that tradition. It's ideal for laymen to have that advantage.

But, it's not evidence-based. Least not in my experience. Also, I never heard of Buddhist saying they claim the truth. At least the non-nichiren practitioners don't.

My opinion

 

[SalixIncendium]

It seems that the bottom line is that Enlightenment depends only on personal effort alone in relation to karma and rebirth, which sounds pretty anxiety provoking, considering how long and how many times a person needs to live.

How did you arrive at the conclusion that enlightenment is exclusively dependent on personal effort in relation to karma and rebirth?

I'm not aware of any predetermined quantity of how long one lives or how many times one lives to be a determining factor. How long and how many times does one need to live to attain enlightenment?

There is no empirical data related to attainment of enlightenment among all people practicing various forms of meditation..

I was unaware that enlightenment/mystical experiences attained though personal experience required any empirical data.

Plus, there is the gnawing question as to how one can be sure one is following the path set by Gautama Siddhartha or even Sanatana Dharma, since there are many competing claims for authentic teachings in both.

Are these two the only paths to enlightenment?

 

[sun rise]

Belief has no value if it does not lead to action. The only belief required is the assumption that path one chooses is the right one and leads in the right direction.

 

[duvduv]

Of course there is no doubt that meditation of any type csn be empirically proven to have beneficial physical and psychological effects. But this is not the same as a metaphysical reality of enlightenment, which must rely on FAITH for its truthful doctrine. It doesn't matter whether it's Zen or Transcendental Meditation or everything in between. There can be no objective empirical measure for attainment of Nirvana. Thus, one can never know if one will ever attain that goal especially given that it is totally subjective with competing claims about the process.

 

[duvduv]

I was simply using these two types as examples....

How did you arrive at the conclusion that enlightenment is exclusively dependent on personal effort in relation to karma and rebirth?

I'm not aware of any predetermined quantity of how long one lives or how many times one lives to be a determining factor. How long and how many times does one need to live to attain enlightenment?



I was unaware that enlightenment/mystical experiences attained though personal experience required any empirical data.



Are these two the only paths to enlightenment?

 

[duvduv]

I thought the whole idea of the boddisatva was to assist others. But regardless, the lack of some empirical evidence that proves that meditation leads to Enlightenment would be valuable unless it's acceptable as a matter of pure faith, which makes the claims of atheist "Buddhism" manifestly illogical.

Enlightenment is when you understand the ful nature of life and death. Once you have that, you no longer reborn. You die.

Probably the reason why people who may be enlightened don't say anything because that would be an attachment. Maybe if the idea is to spread The Dharma but monks do that and they aren't enlightened. Takes a lot or rebirths to get there and The Buddha says there's no point in asking. That's not important.

As for data, it's not abrahamics. Data is in the practice, deeds, and understanding. It's self cultivation of the mind to where "proof" is not in a book or outside party but something you practice and receive guidance when lost not shown the way of the lost. No blind and now I see type of thing.

As for being sure one follows the right path really depends on the lineage and how one practices. I'm not familiar with Sanatana Dharma but The Dharma The Buddha taught is self knowledge. If one is going into monastic tradition, yes the right path is the rules one follows in that tradition. It's ideal for laymen to have that advantage.

But, it's not evidence-based. Least not in my experience. Also, I never heard of Buddhist saying they claim the truth. At least the non-nichiren practitioners don't.

My opinion

 

[duvduv]

And it is karma and rebirth that are the effects of the lack of Enlightenment on a very lonely path in conventional Godless Buddhism at least, and frustration in other paths without empirical evidence of enlightenment and unity with the Brahman

 

[Willamena]

It seems that the bottom line is that Enlightenment depends only on personal effort alone in relation to karma and rebirth, which sounds pretty anxiety provoking, considering how long and how many times a person needs to live.

There is no empirical data related to attainment of enlightenment among all people practicing various forms of meditation..

Plus, there is the gnawing question as to how one can be sure one is following the path set by Gautama Siddhartha or even Sanatana Dharma, since there are many competing claims for authentic teachings in both.

One would have to stumble around in the dark to practice something anxiously. Mediation can be done in the light.

Enlightenment (of Buddhahood) can be practiced. It can be practiced with each breath, with each motion, with each smile.

Thich Nhat Hanh puts it:

When I was a novice, I believed that it's very difficult to become a Buddha, that it takes many lifetimes. Enlightenment is not a matter of time. You cannot talk about enlightenment in terms of months or years because enlightenment can come in an instant. Practicing mindfulness of breathing and mindfulness of walking, we learn to let the Buddha breathe for us, to let the Buddha walk for us. If you practice like this you learn to become the Buddha and the Buddha learns to become you, and it's very easy. In the beginning you're a part-time Buddha, and slowly you become a full-time Buddha. Sometimes you fall back and become a part-time Buddha again, but with steady practice you become a full-time Buddha again. Buddahood is there, within our reach. You can become a Buddha wherever and whenever you like--it's really nice.

 

[ChanaR]

I don't know if there is one moment of Mokhti, when one become truly, fully, permanently enlightened. But I can say certain things about cultivating:

1. By cultivating the virtues, I not only make myself a better person, but I make life better for those I come into contact with. As people en masse cultivate the virtues, the world becomes a better place. It is certainly more peaceful and less violent, and more fair, then it was 10,000 years ago, even 1000 years ago, even 100 years ago.
2. By cultivating, especially as part of a group that cares about the cultivation of the spirit, I have a healthier, happier, and longer life.
3. By cultivating, I get to know not only myself better, but by extension I come to understand others better, making myself a better mother, daughter, sister, wife, friend, employer, employee, citizen...
4. And perhaps most telling, by cultivating, I get flashes of sudden insight, where I DO see the Great Dance of the universe, moments where I AM in the presence of the Divine, however brief they may be, however unexpected, moments that I cannot possibly put into words, and from which I return with profound understanding that I wish I could share but can't. I think these are called mystical experiences. These alone are bits of heaven on earth that are worth giving up one's life for.

 

[Vinayaka]

It seems that the bottom line is that Enlightenment depends only on personal effort alone in relation to karma and rebirth, which sounds pretty anxiety provoking, considering how long and how many times a person needs to live.

Anxiety provoking?
Clearly you haven't met many Hindus or Buddhists. As groups, we're pretty calm. When's the last time you heard a Buddhist monk going on a crazy hate filled rant.

Seems to me those faiths that see it as a one chance ... heaven or hell ... would be anxiety provoking. Imagine playing a sport like basketball ... and there is a large prize if you make a free throw. You want just one chance, or as many as it takes to get it right?

 

[Kirran]

Anxiety provoking?
Clearly you haven't met many Hindus or Buddhists. As groups, we're pretty calm. When's the last time you heard a Buddhist monk going on a crazy hate filled rant.

Aside from Buddhist monks who supported ethnic cleansing in Myanmar and Sri Lanka. Maybe Bhutan also? Not sure.