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Featured What does this passage mean?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by FineLinen, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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    Philippians 2:1-11 The Message (MSG)

    "If you’ve gotten anything at all out of following Christ, if his love has made any difference in your life, if being in a community of the Spirit means anything to you, if you have a heart, if you care— then do me a favor: Agree with each other, love each other, be deep-spirited friends. Don’t push your way to the front; don’t sweet-talk your way to the top. Put yourself aside, and help others get ahead. Don’t be obsessed with getting your own advantage. Forget yourselves long enough to lend a helping hand.

    Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn’t think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn’t claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion.

    Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth—even those long ago dead and buried—will bow in worship before this Jesus Christ, and call out in praise that he is the Master of all, to the glorious honor of God the Father."
     
  4. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    It's a quote from the O.T. where he says "to me every knee shall bend". so it seems "at" is more likely correct.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Love takes many forms.....it’s not all ‘lovey dovey’ sometimes love hurts....sometimes “tough love” does more good than indulgence.

    Philippians 2:5-11 is an interesting passage when you break it down and read it from an Interlinear....

    “Your attitude toward one another should be the same as that of Christ Jesus, who, although he was in the form of God , did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped , but emptied himself, taking on the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of man . And being found in appearance as a man he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death , even death on a cross ! Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven , and on earth and under the earth , and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (MOUNCE Interlinear)

    Read these verses carefully because they do not say what you think they do.....

    What “form” does God have? The Bible says that he is a “spirit”, so Jesus as one who dwelled in heaven with God, is also a spirit being. Angels too are “spirits”.

    He did not want to grasp equality with God because he was not God and did not ever say that he was. Humans could have regarded him as such because of his supernatural abilities, as they did when Paul and his companion performed miracles in Lystra. (Acts 14:8-13)

    He sacrificed his spirit life in heaven to become a human redeemer for mankind....but you will notice that he “became obedient to the point of death”....to whom was he obedient if he was God?

    After his sacrificial death, it says that “God highly exalted him”....can God highly exalt himself? And then it says that God “bestowed on him a name that is above every name”....how can God give himself a name that is above the name he already has?

    Bending a knee to Jesus is a mark of respect, not a act of worship because Jesus never accepted worship, though he did accept obeisance as the son of God.

    Then notice that all the confessions of faith in Jesus as “Lord” ( not God) is “to the glory of God the Father”.....Jesus always glorified his Father...never himself.

    No one will bow in worship to Jesus because Jesus himself calls his Father “the only true God” (John 17:3) and he told the devil that it was to God “alone” that worship was to be given. (Luke 4:5-8) He quoted OT scripture to demonstrate the validity of that exclusive worship. (Exodus 20:3) The Jews worshipped only one God, not a trinity of gods. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

    Love means that you speak up to dispel falsehood.....just like Jesus did. Not everyone liked what he said but every word was truth. Sometimes the truth hurts.....
     
    #5 Deeje, Oct 1, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your post L. of Truth. The passage in Phil. is indeed flowing from the Old Covenant text. When St. Paul expresses it in Philippians he uses the word "en" in koine Greek which is "in" in English.

    It's a mite early to follow into the repercussions of what this means, but rest assured we shall take a look later.
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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    Hi there Deeje: I may have mistaken the rules for this section of this great site, but if you are a Christian J.W. you should not be posting on this section of non- denominational.

    Please clarify the rules for this old geezer and we will look at this verse together. Much thanks for your post.

    "hina en anoma iēsous pas gony kamptō epouranios kai epigeios kai katachthonios"
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Here are the rules....the forum you posted in comes under the heading of "Same-Faith debates".

    "Hello and welcome to the Same Faith Debates subforum! Before posting here, there are a few special rules you will want to be aware of:

    1. The title of this subforum is a bit of a misnomer. "Same faith" debates need not be faith-based, nor do they even need to be religious. What this area is for is to have debates among members of specified group(s), such as "atheists only" or "Hindus only," etc.
    2. Same Faith Debates are restricted to members of specified group(s). If you are not a member of the specified group(s), you are not allowed to participate in the debate at all, even if it is to ask a question. Failure to abide by this may result in a warning being issued to your account.
    3. If you create a thread in this subforum it is your responsibility to indicate which group(s) you want to restrict the thread to. If you do not specify group(s), the RF staff may move your thread at their discretion. When you create a thread in this subforum, also do the following:
      1. List the specified group(s) in the title of your thread
      2. Elaborate on those group(s) in the opening post of your thread, if necessary"
    So it is necessary for the OP to specify which faith can participate. Since the post opened with a scripture, it is assumed to be open for Christians to participate......I am a Christian.
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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    "Wherefore God has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

    At = en

    The name = anoma

    Jesus = Iēsous

    Every = pas

    Should bow = kamptō

    Heaven = epouranios

    Earth = epigeros

    Underworld = katachtonios

    "He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth. It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone." -MSG-


    1. All beings.

    2. All dimensions.

    3. In union with the Name.

    4. Pas = radically means all.
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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    Deeje: Being a Christian has many avenues of union with Abba. The problem is the J.W. part in your position, which is NOT non- denominational. If you can get the mod's to authorize our posting to one another on this link you can rest assured we shall continue.

    Please note: F.L. will NOT be pursuing what the Watchtower believes or why. If you want to continue, (with Mod. approval), discussing the subject at hand, I will be pleased to continue with you & the passage of St. Paul to the Philippians.
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I am interested to hear your opinions on this as even the Interlinear translates "en" as "in" but in that one instance it translates "en" as "at". An interesting observation but does it matter?
     
  12. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    I guess I was just curious as to why the KJV, ESV, ABP, NIV and others used "at"
     
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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    This will be my last response to you until you get a Mod. to authorize you posting on this non-denominational link at which time we shall continue.

    The NWT translates the verse under consideration as "in" not "at".

    I have a dear friend who has translated the N.T. koine into an Amplified plus (Jonathan Mitchell N.T Translation). His name = Jonathan Mitchell.

    This is his translation of the verse under consideration.

    "To the end that within The Name: Jesus! (or: in union with the name of Jesus; in the midst of the Name belonging to [Yahweh-the-Savior]), every knee (= person) – of the folks upon the heaven (of those belonging to the super- heaven, or [situated] upon the atmosphere) and of the people existing upon the earth and of the folks dwelling down under the ground (or: on the level of or pertaining to subterranean ones) – may bend (or: would bow) in worship, prayer or allegiance." -JMT-
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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    In a word, (actually 2), poor translation.

    It is clear the Lord has determined to bring all dimensions of the heavens, earth and underworld to bow before Him, and confess His Lordship.

    One of the things we will consider is this forced submission, (IOW perfunctory genuflections), or flowing out of union IN/EN the Name of all names.

    Overview - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

    Verse 10

    That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.

    Under the earth (καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.
     
    #15 FineLinen, Oct 1, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I have come to appreciate through my own studies of the scriptures that the "sons" who address Jehovah as "Abba" are only those who receive his anointing, thereby receiving an adoption into God's family of spirit "sons".

    The "problem" I have with "non-denominational" beliefs is that it is open for any person to bring in their own ideas and to interpret scripture any way they wish. I do not find that this was the case in original Christianity which was, after all, an extension of the Jewish faith, worshipping the same God, with the Jewish Messiah, but under a "new covenant" which they were told to expect. (Jeremiah 31:31-34; 2 John 9-11)

    LOL...please note that I have no need to pursue WT beliefs because everything I believe is contained in God's word....so lets just stick to the scriptures and we should be fine....:)

    I enjoy exploring the POV's of others....it help me understand their perspective.
     
  16. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    I would argue that Jesus did not carry his human nature to heaven, as Robertson says
     
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  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Well-Known Member

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    It is unwise to argue with a scholar of koine Greek of 50 years experience at graduate level (A.T. Robertson).

    Jesus Christ is the Archegos and Prodromos. As such He has every right as the Prince Leader to carry the Name He has earned as the Master of Reconciliation wherever He so desires!
     
  18. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    The Bible is so crystal clear on the subject I can't understand how anyone who could claim to be a scholar could make such a false statement.
    .
    I mean really!

    Human nature is subject to death. Which means that it is mortal. Jesus' nature he carried to heaven 'dies no more" as Paul clearly says.
    A nature that is subject to death, and a nature that is not, are two different natures.
    Many scholars are subject to be biased, just as translations.
     
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  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Wow....am I that scary? :eek:

    Which is your point though, isn't it? "En" is translated as "in" in every other verse in this passage except this one where "at" is used instead in most other translations. Did the NWT get it wrong then, IYO?
    We have taken our rendering from the Kingdom Interlinear....as follows...

    "τοῦτο This φρονεῖτε be YOU minding ἐν in ὑμῖν YOU ὃ which καὶ also ἐν in Χριστῷ Christ Ἰησοῦ, Jesus, 6 ὃς who ἐν in μορφῇ form θεοῦ of God ὑπάρχων existing οὐχ not ἁρπαγμὸν snatching ἡγήσατο he considered τὸ the εἶναι to be ἴσα equal (things) θεῷ, to God, 7 ἀλλὰ but ἑαυτὸν himself ἐκένωσεν he emptied μορφὴν form δούλου of slave λαβών, having taken, ἐν in ὁμοιώματι likeness ἀνθρώπων of men γενόμενος· having become; 8 καὶ and σχήματι to fashion εὑρεθεὶς having been found ὡς as ἄνθρωπος man ἐταπείνωσεν he made lowly ἑαυτὸν himself γενόμενος having become ὑπήκοος obedient μέχρι until θανάτου, death, θανάτου of death δὲ but σταυροῦ· of stake; 9 διὸ through which καὶ also ὁ the θεὸς God αὐτὸν him ὑπερύψωσεν, put high up over, καὶ and ἐχαρίσατο he graciously gave αὐτῷ to him τὸ the ὄνομα name τὸ the ὑπὲρ over πᾶν every ὄνομα, name, 10 ἵνα in order that ἐν in τῷ the ὀνόματι name Ἰησοῦ of Jesus πᾶν every γόνυ knee κάμψῃ should bend ἐπουρανίων of those in heaven καὶ and ἐπιγείων of those on earth καὶ and καταχθονίων, of those underground, 11 καὶ and πᾶσα every γλῶσσα tongue ἐξομολογήσηται should confess out ὅτι that Κύριος Lord Ἰησοῦς Jesus Χριστὸς Christ εἰς into δόξαν glory θεοῦ of God πατρός. Father."

    What is the big difference between "in" and "at"?

    Jesus is not once called "Yahweh" in any verse of scripture. That name belongs to the only Being in existence who is identified by it (Psalm 83:18)...and that is the God and Father of Jesus Christ.

    Oh, I see, so you have accepted your friend's translation as the correct one because he has read into that passage what you want to believe about Jesus? It all makes sense now. Thank you for clearing that up.

    Reading through that passage above however, I see so much license taken with the wording that it bears little resemblance to the original. But if that is what you want to believe, I was hoping for something more substantial than a friend's interpretation of the Greek.....done entirely to support the trinity. Sorry, it doesn't work.

    No need to continue.....I do not see that you have anything more concrete than another biased POV.....we've all got 'em.
     
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